Sick French Anglefish

[leebca]

You pose an interesting question, Gordonious.

Dr. Burgess put the whole hyposalinity treatment into perspective when he wrote in answer to a published letter that how hyposalinity works against the Marine Ich is to stress the parasite.

If you think in these terms, what you want to do is NOT give the parasite a chance to do any adjustment either. If you apply the logic of lowering the salinity so microbes can adjust, what prevents the parasite from making a similar adjustment? You see, you can't just apply this logic to the good guys.

There are many hidden factors and features to treatment instructions. Although the lowering of the salinity isn't carved in stone for 48 hours, it helps in eradicating the Marine Ich faster.

There are reports coming out of Asia that Marine Ich parasites are beginning to adjust to life at lower salinity. This is very bad news! :evil: Thus, I would not want to be party to encouraging these parasites to live in low saline solutions.

Since you're not in a good position to control water quality, then I'd suggest not lowering the salinity until you are ready to properly control it, rather than stretch it out. I give the above as my preference for recommending this, but, it isn't law.

 

[Gordonious]

Yeah that was my only concern and the reason I asked. That is I didn't know if 48 hours or less was going to help shock the ich. You give a very good solid answer that makes a lot of sense. I like knowing why I am doing something and not just being told to do something.

The fish had even less spots on him today and was acting very normal and happy. The water quality was slightly better again, but according to the test kit I have the pH was off. The pH probe has been shipped and is on it's way, but I don't expect it for another two days.

I asked my Mom if she could help my sick fish out a little bit by making some Sodium carbonate. I'm not really that lazy, but just like to get my family involved when I can. Does anyone know about how much Sodium carbonate it takes to move the pH by say .1? I'll experiment a bit with when I get the probe, and I realize it will be a bit different at different salinity levels, but was just curious if someone had a link to a chart or formula.

 

[Gordonious]

Updated pics ----> http://www.gordonious.com/RC/sick.html

 

[Damsel13]

I couldn't connect to the server so didn't get to see pic.. Could you post it here?

 

[leebca]

I also cannot see the picture/site.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Must be browser settings as the page and pictures came in clear for me

 

[NaH2O]

I can see the new pics as well (I'm using Safari as my browser).

 

[Gordonious]

Sorry. The website provider I was working with has been updating their server and that may have been why you were unable to see them earlier. It's anoying to post pictures on this page because I can not use HTML. Let me know if the pics still don't work.

 

[Damsel13]

Saw the pictures. Poor baby.

I use safari too.

 

[Gordonious]

Well the summer was rough and it was difficult to get to my grandparents often enough to do a true hypo treatment. I also didn't worry over it too much because the spots went away and he seemed to be normal.
A couple weeks ago I moved Frenchy and all of his buddies to a new 75g AGA megaflow tank.(His buddies being the purple tang, snow flake eel, and the newest addition a little flame angelfish.) Things seemed great until one morning there was a puddle on the floor in front of the tank. I had to move everyone back into the 55 for a little while so I could move the tank and let the carpet dry. It came at a horrible time, so they all sat in the tank with not much more then a power head and a heater...

 

[Gordonious]

The spots are back and Frenchy is having a horrible time breathing, he even seems to be surface breaching a bit. I changed a large amount of water today and tried to hook up a skimmer, but it's not working. I am hoping I can get a new pH probe and start the hypo in time.

Moral of the story, ick does not go away on it's own. My question, can I ever make ick go away completely with proper qt of new animals and a complete hypo for all of these guys. Also can all of these animals handle going through hypo together?

Hopefully it's not too late, they are in bad shape. I am ashamed I let this happen again, life has been horrible busy with two jobs, and going to school full time, but there is no excuse.

Jon

 

[leebca]

First I want to extend my appreciation for you being so forthright with us. Almost all the time, a person announces that 'his Marine Ich has gone away' all on its own only to have it reoccur. Only, they never post that it didn't go away. It leaves those new to the hobby into thinking that it can go away on its own.

The answer you seek is a resounding YES! I have had home FO and FOWLR tanks free of Marine Ich and Marine Velvet for more than 37 years. You can too.

As you already know. . .All the fish need to be removed from the tank and cured beyond doubt. Next, the tank must go fishless for no less than 8 weeks. During this time, the temperature, salinity, water changes, etc. must continue on as before. Make no changes to the tank. You can add organics (foods) to the tank to keep the bacteria metabolizing the wastes.

After the above (done diligently and properly) the quarantine of all newly acquired fishes and not putting anything into the display that may carry the parasites will keep the marine system free.

Good luck!

 

[Gordonious]

As before the tank they were in hardly had any biological growth in it at all. I will probably wait the 8 weeks regardless, but I think as extra assurance I am going to either wash the sand with fresh water or go as far to pour boiling fresh water on top of it. The rock that was in the tank is going to be removed.

Eventually their tank is going to have new rock added, some more aragalive, I'm going to cycle the tank completely purchase a jumbo size skimmer and start them off with a good healthy tank.

Currently though it is a little rough to think about the hypo salinity treatment. For sure I have to purchase a new pH probe as the one I bought for them last summer will not calibrate any more. Also I am very worried that the French angelfish is in such trouble right now I am worried I might not get the salinity down fast enough.

Do you think his surface breaching may be his attempt to do away with the ick?
And if so do you think that if I brought the salinity down like your normally suppose to with hypo he will get better quickly?
Are all these fish including the snowflake capable of handing the hypo?

More questions to come I am sure, thanks again.

Just so you can see, before the tank leaked all four of the fish were a happy group hanging out together. I got lucky enough to capture this sweet pic before things started to go down hill again.

 

[Snowboarda42]

As before the tank they were in hardly had any biological growth in it at all. I will probably wait the 8 weeks regardless, but I think as extra assurance I am going to either wash the sand with fresh water or go as far to pour boiling fresh water on top of it. The rock that was in the tank is going to be removed.

Hey Jon,

I'll chime in a bit here as well. I assume you're talking about your Display Tank when you said the above quote. There's no need to "boil" the sand and rock that you have. The biological growth that Lee and everyone is referring to is the biological bacteria that live in your Live Rock and sand, and convert fish wastes into Nitrates. If you pour boiling water on all these things you'll end up loosing all these beneficial bateria. Honestly, there's no point in doing so. I can understand wanting to make sure that there's no chance of any Ich surviving the process, but you'll be doing more harm than good. The 8 weeks alone is more than enough to rid the system of any Ich, since it has no way of surviving if it has no fish to host.

If I were you, simply take all your fish out of the display, and keep them in Hypo for at least 8 weeks. If I read your last post correctly, I think thats what you're doing.

If you're worried about your angel not surviving while you get the Specific Gravity down, take him and put him in a seperate 20G tank and treat him with Cupramine. Make sure its Cupramine (by seachem) because any other sort of Copper is lethal to Angels.


I don't know if you've read any of Lee's articles, but here's a few that will definitely help your case:

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

 

[Gordonious]

We are really worried about the French Angelfish, he is surface breaching more and more. It is definitely not a swim bladder problem, it's him trying to get more oxygen. All the animals right now are in a 55g tank with a power head, heater, and air bubbler. I may start the lower the salinity slightly, but I have no way currently of accurately measuring the pH of their water until I get a new pH probe.

I understand denitrifying bacteria and the fact is there was hardly any in the one rock, or the sand that was in their display tank. The set up of the tank was rushed(I know a big no no), but about 50-60 gallons of the 75 gallons in the tank came from an established tank I have in another room. I'll probably just rinse it wish fresh water to clean of detritus and lose stuff on the outside and then start to cycle there tank so it can be ready for them to go back in.

The tricky part is going to be that I am leaving the tanks for a month about 5 weeks from now. I am going on a study abroad. My gf will be left behind with the animals. I may have her talk with you guys on here while I am going and I should be able to talk online daily as there will be wireless access where I am staying. She loves the animals fairly well and knows the basics, but balancing the pH and keeping the water clean can be a tricky act with the salinity low.

 

[Gordonious]

Ok, I read in one of the stickys that ick does like the gills. The fish is in bad shape, though I have not been home all day due to classes and meetings, I've talked to my gf several times.

I know it may stress the fish a bit more, but would I perhaps be able to do a fresh water dip to help nock off some of the ick helping it to breath a little bit? If this is the case, and I know I should read articles on dipping, but do you think I should add enough pH buffer to a 5g bucket to bring it to 8.3(based on the lable of the buffer since I have no way to measure) and do a 3-4 minute dip then return the fish immediately back to the hospital 55g tank?

Ideas? I fear something needs to be done fast and I am not sure where I can get a pH probe in a hurry... Perhaps I will order one online and just pay the shipping.

Jon

 

[Gordonious]

Would adding stressed coat help a little bit or is this not recommended beause I obviously need to do the hypo treatment at some point.

Jon

 

[leebca]

Adding a coating conditioner to the QT is a good idea after the spots are no longer seen. It will marginally be of benefit while the fish is infected.

Piping (gulping air at the surface) is a sign that the fish is not getting enough oxygen. That is most likely from gill infestation and/or gill damage (both by the parasite). A low level infection continuous in a fish results in a more labored breathing because that is the most likely place the parasites hang out.

When people say, 'My fish don't show any signs of MI' and it hasn't been eradicated from the system, then it means the fish is under constant battle conditions with the parasite, unseen by the human keeper. Anything (like a food or space, or relocation stress) that shifts the balance, gives the parasite an upper-hand.

Since the gills are damaged, a copper treatment only using Cupramine would be the best course. Hyposalinity will work, but the fish may not survive that treatment. It seems like the fish is in its last 'push' for survival against a long infection.

 

[Snowboarda42]

Hey Jon,

Here's what you're looking for:

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~SC4713.html

make sure you get this too:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~SF1119.html

Don't skimp out on the test kit, its just as important as the Cupramine b/c its all about the accuracy. Make sure you don't do hypo at the same time as the cupramine, and make sure you aren't running any UV or carbon on the QT tank.

 

[Gordonious]

:-( copper it is then. I'll read on it right now, hypo for the rest of them? This is going to get complicated as I don't have a lot of large tanks, especialy ones that I want to use copper in and declare the tanks no longer suitable for reef. Crap.