Sick French Anglefish

[Gordonious]

Please help me find out what is wrong with my fish. I am between homes and moved it into my grandparents house with a new tank mate, a purple tang. My grandparents weren't sure if it was ill or not till this morning. When they called me I returned home asap. I think it may be marine velvet, but I've been on 10 pages already that talk about the disease that have no photos on them.

http://www.gordonious.com/RC/sick.html

 

[leebca]

Jon,

It's not Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There are few photos of fish with Marine Velvet mostly because by the time the 'velvety sheen' appears on the fish, or by the time the fine spots (like a coating of powdered sugar) appear on the fish, the fish dies shortly thereafter. About the only first symptoms of MV is fast breathing and a hunger strike. Unfortunately, that is also the symptoms of a few other diseases and conditions.

Is the fish flashing? (Scratching on decorations, rocks, substrate?)

The photos seem to show an advanced stage of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). There are three ways to treat this disease: Copper, hyposalinity, or the transfer method.

If you're interested in more general information about Marine Ich, its myths and facts, please read this: http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27003

Any treatment requires the fish be moved to a bare bottom hospital tank. If you want to treat with copper, you should read this first:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27005

If you want to treat by a hyposalinity treatment, I'll post instructions for that. You will need to own/buy/borrow a refractometer to perform that treatment. The hyposalinity treatment is easier on the fish and a bit harder on the aquarist. The copper treatment is harder on the fish, a bit shorter in duration, and easier for the aquarist. Considering the current condition of the fish, I would recommend a copper treatment ONLY using Cupramine and a Seachem or Salifert Copper Test Kit to control the copper concentration.

Good luck!

 

[Gordonious]

The tank it is currently in is 55g bare bottom and the only other inhabitant is the purple tang.(besides two snails which I can deal with) I was thinking hyposalinity as I would really not like to ruin the tank with a copper treatment, but you do have a good point about it being quicker. I own a refractometer and actually currently don't even own a hydrometer. I don't know how the hypo could be that difficult, but perhaps after working a marine bio lab two summer again my opinion on difficult is different then most.

Please do post info on a hyposalinity treatment if you have them. I am going to think about a copper treatment though as it is pretty far along in being infected. I am also going to see if someone has a UV sterilizer I might be able to borrow.

Note:
My grandmother told me it hadn't eaten today. She said it looked at the food and seemed interested, but didn't eat anything. I forgot to see if it would eat when I was there. I was just in shock as the condition it was in and rushed back to my parents to get online with the pics and video.

 

[LakeEd]

Jon,

To get you started, here is a "Quickie" on how to do Hyposalinity, until Lee gives you move information.

"Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish."

The above is a direct quote out of one of Lee's posts. Basically, drop your salinity down to 1.008-1.009 and hold it there for 4 weeks AFTER last spot on fish.

When I did this, I had to get used to monitoring my pH... because being lower in specific gravity, I found that I did have to use buffer to keep the pH where it needed to be. Other than that... also watch for any ammonia and/or nitrite... and this treatment is very easy on the fish.

P.S. Inverts won't make it in a Hypo tank.

 

[Gordonious]

Thank you both, Le and Ed. I will decide tomorrow morning which route I am going to take.

Unfortunately I don't have a pH probe(like a pin point) and my bank account, as always, is empty. I have two-three different pH test kits that never agree with each other and I stopped using them a long time ago. I run my tanks on a limited budget with frequent water changes and low bio load/water volume ratios.

My brother has a 29g that I could set up and run with copper, but I'd have to buy a heater and power head... I would also have to find and buy Cupramine and a Seachem. Oh and a Salifert test kit. I think I have a copper test kit somewhere, but I know it's not Salifert and I know it is really old so I wouldn't trust it. Moving the angelfish also means I would stress it even more. The tang has been in the tank with it so I should probably treat it as well right? I don’t think I could put them both in a 29 with out a filter.

Probably safest and cheapest to go with hypo. I think I would have to buy a pin point pH probe to really feel comfortable.

(I think the snails I may stick in a small container and take them to another qt tank I have up north which I suspect has baby parasitic isopods in it. I understand they won’t make it through the hypo salinity. )

A lot to think about tonight. Thanks again for the help. I'm sure you will be hearing more from me.

 

[Gordonious]

One of the people who attends the local reef club went through ich not to long ago and was using a UV sterilzer in addition to hypo. Would a UV sterilzer help in addition to the hypo? Tomorrow morning I am going to test everything on the tank and then clean the side glass from aglae, do a ~~20% water change. All of the water I will use I will get from the more stable older system I have. I'll add a large aquaclear filter from the other tank and add a little more carbon. I'm going to point the power head higher to increase the amount of oxygen in the tank.

I'm going to try to talk my parents into loaning me the money for a pH probe as I will probably be heading back to work soon in the northern part of the state and only be able to visit this tank once a week. I can premix water and ask my parents to monitor the salinity, add water, and do water changes.

For now I need sleep as I am sick myself as well and need to not stress about this too much.

 

[Gordonious]

Ok, couldn't sleep. I was talking with the president of my reef club who has been telling me that my bio filtration is messed up and if I just fix that then I should be ok. He always brings sick fish home to his old healthy tank and they get better. I'm going to add 2-3 aqualcears to the back of the tank. Since the 55 is not drilled and I don't have a spare overflow box there is no way to add a sump or skimmer(my hob skimmer leaks and the rest are insump skimmers). Besides water changes this is the only thing I can add to the tank to improve the water quality. I think I will leave the water a little low as well and then the aquaclears will mix in lots of oxygen.

Pretty sure at this point I am going to do the hypo and just hoping the improvement in water will help. I'm going to add some Selcon to their diet as well. Hopefully Frenchy(as my gf calls him) will eat for me tomorrow.

 

[leebca]

I have posted a hyposalinity treatment process, in detail, for you here: http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27155

Marine Ich is not prevented by increasing/improving circulation nor UV. Your posts and questions indicate that you haven't read the references I have provided to you or you are choosing to not believe what is written and rather listen to those who don't know. PLEASE read those links I gave you.

Good luck!

 

[Gordonious]

Ok, I hadn't read all of what was posted, it was 3am last night and I'm sick. I said I would finish my research this morning. I never said that increasing or improving circulation or UV would solve the problem. I plan on adding things to help the water quality as currently there is nothing in the tank but a power head and a heater. I want to make sure the water is in top quality during the hypo. The water was cloudy a week and a half ago and if I got that way again it definitely wouldn't help things.

In addition to improving the water quality I also want to add selcon and possibly beta glucon(sp?) and mix up their diets a little more. I want to make sure the fish are in their best physical condition, so they have the best chance of living through this.

How many days should I take to slowly move the tank to hypo? I will be adding fresh water with a very slow drip.

I also need to decide if it is necessary to remove a piece of LR that is in the tank. The rock itself was bare base rock(not alive) when I added it to the tank two weeks ago. I don't care if it “dies” during the treatment and will probably bleach it and leave it out of water for a couple weeks regardless or when I remove it. If it may help harbor the parasite in its young life stages I will remove it. In a bare bottom, rock less tank would the parasite have little place to go, thus helping the removal of the parasite? If it doesn't matter if the rock is there or not I will leave it in so it can help a bit with biological filtration because of the rocks surface area. (Please let me know if I need to clarify my question further, that was difficult to word.)

 

[Gordonious]

"How many days should I take to slowly move the tank to hypo? " Ignore this question found it in the article.

 

[LakeEd]

Adding a UV unit to a good QT can't hurt anything... but keeping in mind working on a limited budget... I would opt for the addition of a pH probe and Meter... for a much better "bang for your buck" idea.

I would also treat your Tang, along with your Angle. As you have already figured out, they share the same tank... so will also share the same parasite.

Using water from another "established" system for water changes, isn't something I would use as my 1st choice when running a QT tank. Yes, that "established" tank may be looking very nice to our eyes... but we don't know what may be in there. So, when you are adding that water, each and every time you do... your "wait time" has to begin all over again, incase there is anything in that other tank that you now just brought over to your QT.

Lee's article on Hypo is very good. Try following it as closely as possible, and all should work out well for you.

Keep us posted!

 

[Gordonious]

Thanks Ed. I am on my way over now. Going to do a water change from the reef system today, but will be the last time I do a water change from there. The rest will be from fresh RO water that has been heated, aerated, and brought to the same water parameters that the tank is currently in. I will only be adding water with a drip line even though I will be careful to make sure they are the same parameters I will still do things slowly just incase.

I realize that UV sterilizers cost a bit, but I thought I might be able to find a reef club member that has one I could use for a bit. I also have one that is part of a via aqua hob multi skimmer. I could close off the air line in take so the skimmer wouldn't work. Then it would just be an hob UV sterilizer with a media bay in it. (I just have to fix a leak on the stupid thing for the 5th time.)

Both of you, thanks again for the support and information. I will be keeping in touch.

 

[Gordonious]

BTW, Ed is that your fish in your icon? I love them and was hoping to add one when I set up a larger tank for the two that are currently sick.

 

[LakeEd]

BTW, Ed is that your fish in your icon? I love them and was hoping to add one when I set up a larger tank for the two that are currently sick.

Yes... thats just the tail section of my Achilles Tang. AWESOME fish!

They do want pleanty of swimming room (length), and as with similar Tang's (Power Blue, Power Browns) are very seseptible to all the Tang illness's, and you need to plan ahead for a very good QT period.

 

[leebca]

I'm glad you're not hoping that circulation and UV will stop the disease.

What you're thinking about Gordonius is using some immune boosters. That is a very good idea. Please read this for ideas and help on that:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=296141#post296141

Also, if you're interested in providing the best nutrition you can, follow the recommendations in this post:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=294728#post294728


I know. . .MORE reading. But it's all there for you!

 

[NaH2O]

Good luck Gordonius! Let us know how things go!

 

[Gordonious]

Lee in your article on hypo you say. "Don't add/use power heads or strong circulating pumps. " Why is it you say this? If I remove the power head that is the tank the water goes stagnant. Do you mean just not to over do it? The only form of filtration will be an hob aquaclear with a bit of foam and carbon, but I can not add that currently because the water level is low.

Yesterday I started lowering the salinity, but I found the water quality was not great after some tests so I didn’t want to change things too much. I also still do not have my pH meter and wanted to wait till I have that to get it all the way down. When I left my grandparents I left a 2g bucket of fresh water dripping every three seconds. I am headed back to see if the water has improved and what the salinity is at, probably hasn’t changed. I am also going to try to get the tank full so I can add more filtration on the back.

Thanks once again for the help and advice. I posted what had happened on several forums and this one is where I received the best info.

Jon

 

[leebca]

You're welcome Jon. I think you'll find Reef Frontiers to be full of helpful, experienced, and willing-to-share members.

The hyposalinity instructions were based around a 15 gallon hospital tank. Hence the reference to the quarantine process. For every 15 gallons of water, there was supposed to be one corner sponge filter. The bubbles from the sponge filter is enough to move the water surface and to circulate the water. The sponge filter is also the biological filter. If you are not using any kind of sponge or similar filter, then you'll need some water movement AND a biological filter. The sponge filter does both.

The important thing to do is not put anything (i.e., equipment) into the path of an ailing fish. You want no intake tubes, powerheads or fast moving equipment that can interact with the sick fish. Thus, the sponge filter was suggested. It just doesn't pose any kind of threat to the fish and yet provide surface movement and some minimal circulation, and the needed biological filtration.

You'd be surprised on how many people are surprised when their sick pet gets 'stuck' to the intake tube or powerhead.

Good luck!

 

[Gordonious]

Thanks again.

Frenchy not only looked better today, but he ate. These fish are notorious for eating, it is what they do, and this individual is no exception. Yesterday he was hardly eating anything, but today he was eating well like he typically does.

The water quality however was not where I would like it to be before I start changing the salinity. Also having only ordered the pH probe late last night it won't be hear for at least another day or two.

Am I correct in believing that lowering the salinity slowly over a week will be just as effective as lowering it in 48 hours? Since the fish is currently doing ok, but obviously still needs to be treated before things will get 100% better, I was thinking of lowering the salinity over a week. This might give any type of denitrifying bacteria that are capable at living at this lower salinity more time to reproduce, right? I also don’t want to pull the salinity down and then return to the northern part of the state for two days with out a pH probe in the water that my grandparents can read off to me.

Does this sound ok? Normally I would just follow your instructions exactly, but because I spend half of my time on the opposite side of the state things are a bit more complicated.

 

[LakeEd]

Sometimes, "things" happen. Try to do what you can, but keep in mind your piticular restrictions, and do your best. The Hypo works WONDERFULLY, when you keep it down at 1.008-1.009 for those FOUR WEEKS after you see the last sign of Ich, I will contest to that! When it does come time to raise your salinity again, DO THAT VERY SLOWLY!!! That is more important, than lowering your salinity in 48 hours... in my book, at least.