Which Nutrient/s feed Cyano?

[Jan]

I have read quite a few threads about Cyano and I've found contradictory information about what is the fuel source this bacteria.

Alternate Fuel source theories:

1. elevated phosphate
2. elevated "nutrient" (i.e. don't overfeed)
3. elevated nitrate
4. elevated carbon bi-product, unrelated to phosphate or nitrate

So, what's the truth? I have cyano covering one large base rock and I can't get it to go away in spite of good skimming (ATO Bubblemaster 200), good flow (4 tunze 6045's on a 125 gallon tank), and regular water changes. I have a phosphate reactor going and GAC in a filter bag, too.

Not sure how I'm going to identify the cause.

 

[DonW]

Flow and flow and more flow. Try blasting the area with a spare maxijet every day until its gone. I'd add two or three times what you have if this is a sps tank.

Don

 

[Jan]

OK, so with 4 tunze 6025's that's 4800 GPH not including the return pump. Am I correct that this means I have ~40X tank volume turnover per hour? And your recommendation is that I increase this by 2-3 times to have 80-120X tank volume turnover per hour for an SPS tank?

I always thought my flow was great in this tank....

 

[DonW]

OK, so with 4 tunze 6025's that's 4800 GPH not including the return pump. Am I correct that this means I have ~40X tank volume turnover per hour? And your recommendation is that I increase this by 2-3 times to have 80-120X tank volume turnover per hour for an SPS tank?

I always thought my flow was great in this tank....

6025's are rated at 660ea according to tunze's web site. Thats 2640 = 21 times turn over, IMO not nearly enough to easily maintain a sps tank. Id shoot for as close to 100 times as you can do. I run 12000 gph in a 110 and still get a spot or two every now and again, but I do overfeed.

Don

 

[Jan]

Oops, the nanostreams I bought are 1200 gph each, so they must be the 6045's, not the 6025's. They total 4800 gph.

I can increase the throughput on my return pump, as it's throttled back with a ball valve.

Don, with that amount of flow in your tank, what kind of fish do you keep?

 

[Skimmy]

she has the 6045's, not 6025's,
so yes, you do have close to 4800 gph, 40x turn over,
add your eheim return pump and were close to 50x

but scince all your tunze are at the top of the tank (and they should stay there...) you could add like 2 more tunze 6045 or koralia #4 on each side of the tank about half way down to promote even more flow down by the substrate.

go ahead, someone try to tell me you cant keep sps in 50x....:razz:

 

[Jan]

but scince all your tunze are at the top of the tank (and they should stay there...) you could add like 2 more tunze 6045 or koralia #4 on each side of the tank about half way down to promote even more flow down by the substrate.

yeah, I was thinking about doing that. You read my mind...

 

[DonW]

go ahead, someone try to tell me you cant keep sps in 50x....:razz:

Just much easier with more flow. Getting and keeping everthing suspended and down to the skimmer is goal. The crud just sitting on the rock promotes cyano. You could get away with 10x turn over if you had perfect conditions, most if not all of us dont.

Don

 

[auqua man]

After having cyano problems off and on for 2 years now my opinion is that Don is right on the money on this one. I have lots of flow in my 110 and have tryed many things to get rid of it. The one thing that finally worked for me was flow flow and more flow.

 

[joker577]

I'm battling a problem right now...I have a 29 gal biocube with a 247 gph stock pump and a 117 gph extra powerhead and did a 3 gal RO water water change yesterday

 

[Boomer]

I do not need to repeat what DonW has said but Flow and flow and more flow Yes the others apply but flow is the most critical factor.

and
4. elevated carbon bi-product, unrelated to phosphate or nitrate

I think is nonsense, as it is related to nitrate and phosphate as they are soruces of P & N

2. elevated "nutrient"

= 1, 3 and 4

 

[MikeS]

While flow will help keep crud suspended in the water column where it can be used by corals and removed by skimming, the actual flow itself will not really inhibit cyano growth. I've seen it grow right on powerhead outlets many times before, and that's about as high flow an area as you can get. The real limiter to cyano growth is nutrients, phosphate and nitrate in particular. Also, cyano growth tends to be proximity based, ie. you can have a water column reletively free of excess nutrients yet still see cyano growth on the rocks and substrate where nutrients tend to accumulate. This is one area that flow will help indirectly, as it helps keep more of said nutrients in the water column to be removed by other means.

MikeS

 

[Boomer]

Are you sure Mike it is cyano on those powerheads or is it really dino's ?

 

[Jan]

4. elevated carbon bi-product, unrelated to phosphate or nitrate

I think is nonsense, as it is related to nitrate and phosphate as they are soruces of P & N

I'm not sure I understand this statement...are you saying nitrate and phosphate are sources of P & N? Sounds circular unless P and N don't mean nitrate and phosphate? (sorry, I'm very literal-minded sometimes... )

 

[MikeS]

Are you sure Mike it is cyano on those powerheads or is it really dino's ?

Over the years I think I've seen just about every filimentous microfauna/flora in a varible rainbow of colors and textures you can imagine grow in my tanks:lol: Red, purple, green, blue, even jet black (the worst!). Sure, sometimes it's probably dinos, or assorted filimentous algaes, but I'm sure it's cyano I see growing in these areas sometimes.

I've noticed that when I have an outbreak of algae, cyano, diatoms, ect...I tend to see them in the higher flow areas of the tank first, (such as powerhead outlets, glass, substrate and rock exposed to direct flow, overflow areas, ect...) they grow more aggressively in these areas, and these are also usually the last areas to clear up once I get the nutrient issue under control. My theory behind this is that in the higher flow areas, the organisim is constantly supplied with water rich in nutrients because of the high flow in that area, where as in more stagnant areas of the tank, they are more limited by the lower overall rate of nutrient turnover. This is not to say I don't see them grow in low flow areas of the tank, I certainly do, however they tend to grow more slowly in these areas, and clear up faster once the nutrient issue has been addressed.

Another thing I have noticed over the years is that I tend to have problems when flow from a powerhead is aimed directly at the surface of my rock. What I believe is happening here is that food or waste particles in the water column that get caught in this flow end up being compacted on the rock surface, creating an area where assorted algaes and slimes can flourish. I have also noticed that I tend to have an outbreak of assorted nasties immediately following a change the direction or increase in the amount of flow in my tank. I think that the reason behind this is pretty simple...the change dislodges crud from the rock and/or substrate (when I had a substrate) increasing the amount of waste in the water column.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while good flow will help create overall an environment in your tank less condusive to cyano-algae-diatom-dino growth...it does so indirectly, that it is not the flow itself that inhibits the growth of said organisims, but rather the lack of total nutrients in the system long term that higher flow helps create. Does that make sense?

MikeS

 

[DonW]

I'm not sure I understand this statement...are you saying nitrate and phosphate are sources of P & N? Sounds circular unless P and N don't mean nitrate and phosphate? (sorry, I'm very literal-minded sometimes... )

All of the typical carbon sources are going to be related to P and N in one way or another. One thing to understand is cyano is a bacteria. It is sitting right on top and covering its food source. If you lift of the cyano you will find its food source. Blast away the food and the cyano cannot survive. Keeping rocks clean has always been a challange another reason why reef tanks require so much flow. You can definately get by with lower flow but the hands on work load is only going to increase, as your finding out.
Moving your power heads around or adding more is a option. Personally I would not add more. I would use them to my advantage. Instead of using the powerheads to shoot a stream use them to push water. Dont think about the water leaving the pump, concentrate on the water that is being pushed or displaced. Since your using always on powerheads come up with more than one scheme. Rotate the heads until they provide good flow that you are happy with. Now do it again but dont move the pump, just the head make it a simple task. Note both schemes, now each time you do a water change switch to the other flow scheme. Once you get the hang of it, the process shouldnt take more than a minute and your tank will be happier. For those hard to reach areas use the glass to your advantage. The is no reason you cant point a powerhead right at a panel. Also use a sting and weight to determine exactly what is happening as you make changes.

Don

 

[Jan]

And I guess it goes without saying that I shouldn't use a product like Ultralife "Red Slime Remover" to get rid of this stuff? I understand that it reduces O2 a lot in the tank, and that an airstone needs to be used during the treatment plus more surface agitation. Most people say the treatment worked great for them but one person said that everything in his/her tank died from it. I just don't want to be one of the people who struggles with cyano for a period of months or even years (one person said they had it for 2 years! :shock Nor do I want to risk losing everything....

 

[DonW]

And I guess it goes without saying that I shouldn't use a product like Ultralife "Red Slime Remover" to get rid of this stuff? I understand that it reduces O2 a lot in the tank, and that an airstone needs to be used during the treatment plus more surface agitation. Most people say the treatment worked great for them but one person said that everything in his/her tank died from it. I just don't want to be one of the people who struggles with cyano for a period of months or even years (one person said they had it for 2 years! :shock Nor do I want to risk losing everything....

No dont use that stuff. Most struggle with cyano because there budget is to small or their fuel input is just plain to high. You have to be willing to put in the time or the money.

Don

 

[Jan]

I know you're right, you're right....

Remember in the movie "When Harry met Sally," Carrie Fisher says to Meg Ryan, "I just don't think (my married boyfriend) is ever going to leave his wife."
Meg replies, "No, he won't."
Carrie: "I know, you're right, you're right..."

 

[joker577]

I'm battling a problem right now...is it bad for the tank or just visually unappealing?