ZEOvit. Lets talk

[reedman]

OK, so I spent about three days going through the zeovit.com forums and I am officially intrigued. Best I can tell the zeolites provide a great environment for the bacteria to pig out before they become food for the corals. The film that forms on the zeolites is dislodged daily and is either ofod or skimmed out. So far, I'm buying into the concept a lot more than I used to.

What do the people with the zeovit systems feed their fish? I can see if you had no fish this would almost eliminate the P & N inputs into the system, thus reducing their levels quickly if you have an efficient skimmer.

I may have to try this system down the road a few and see what all the hype is about. It seems reasonable after the newer information that has been posted. Maybe a little voodoo behind it, but what doesn't have that.

 

[CarlaW]

I'm with Reed here!! I have been following along in this discussion with alot of interest. I find it amazing what can happen when things are discussed on a human level, without any BS.
It is a very interesting concept. I don't know if I'm gonna change over, but at least it's great to know about another concept that is being successful.

 

[scottw]

OK, so I spent about three days going through the zeovit.com forums and I am officially intrigued. Best I can tell the zeolites provide a great environment for the bacteria to pig out before they become food for the corals. The film that forms on the zeolites is dislodged daily and is either ofod or skimmed out. So far, I'm buying into the concept a lot more than I used to.

What do the people with the zeovit systems feed their fish? I can see if you had no fish this would almost eliminate the P & N inputs into the system, thus reducing their levels quickly if you have an efficient skimmer.

I may have to try this system down the road a few and see what all the hype is about. It seems reasonable after the newer information that has been posted. Maybe a little voodoo behind it, but what doesn't have that.

I feed lots of stuff. I make some food up. Golden Pearls, etc. The key for me is not to overfeed, as it should be with any "system" you use. I keep my p&n&n all around zero. I am buying a Hanna Colorimeter (phosphate) on a group buy so I hope to get a better more accurate number of my phosphates .

I'm with Reed here!! I have been following along in this discussion with alot of interest. I find it amazing what can happen when things are discussed on a human level, without any BS.
It is a very interesting concept. I don't know if I'm gonna change over, but at least it's great to know about another concept that is being successful.

That is the reason I started this thread, so we can all learn something, myself included.

Isn't it amazing when you get a bunch of quality people in a thread that want to learn and not bash a system, the amount we can ALL learn. I am very happy to sponsor ReefFrontiers the people that I have talked to either in a thread, pm, or on the phone is amazing. This is one of the BEST boards out there.

scott

 

[OUinLA]

I"m with Scott on this one. Feeding doesn't need to change, unless you are overfeeding to begin with.

What i've noticed, and something I appreciate about the system, is that once people see the results of low nutrients, they do improve their husbandry practices. Husbandry is, of course, important with any method, but i've noticed that when people see their N and P levels drop, color starts getting better. From there they learn that this CAN be a limiting factor towards coral color, which leads to improved husbandry!!!

I will also say for those that are thinking about trying zeovit, start with what we call "the basic 4". this is the zeovit (media) zeofood, zeobac and zeostart. This basic system will remove nutrients. In the future after your excess nutrients are gone, you can try some of the other additives but you should only start with the basic 4 so that you get an understanding of what the products are doing and what your tank does when each product is added.

 

[NaH2O]

What would happen to a system that is used to being run with ozone and UV full time, getting turned off so you could start using the ZEOvit system? Mike/mojo - would a system like this have to be weaned off the use of mechanical filtration to use a more biological system?

 

[Jeremy B.]

I am very "stupid" on Zeo, and still don't have a firm grasp on how it really works, as most others do not either, so I apologize if this question is considered to be "dumb" to many of you, but........

I was talking to a fellow RF member earlier today and we were both wondering why zeolite has to be used as the media? Why can't another media be used to grow this film and bacteria, then rinse it every evening feeding the coral and removing the waste through foam fractionation?

 

[Big E]

From my observations there's seems to be more to zeo than just limiting phosphates & nitrates. I run .02 phosphates in my system & my friend on zeo has the same levels(both tested on my photometer). Nitrates are zero. His corals are a lot lighter than than mine, almost washed out compared to mine. A better description would be pastel. We have several pieces that are from the same mother colony.
I run a skimmer & do water changes........no carbon, phosban, ozone, UV.

There definately is something else happening other than nutrient reduction with zeo. Anybody with any thoughts?

 

[OUinLA]

hard to tell without knowing what he's dosing, how much and all other params

 

[scottw]

What would happen to a system that is used to being run with ozone and UV full time, getting turned off so you could start using the ZEOvit system? Mike/mojo - would a system like this have to be weaned off the use of mechanical filtration to use a more biological system?

I have 2 people on the system that I know for a fact ran UV 24/7. They had no effects switching to ZEOvit. Maybe Mike may have other ideas, I just know from the 2 people.

I am very "stupid" on Zeo, and still don't have a firm grasp on how it really works, as most others do not either, so I apologize if this question is considered to be "dumb" to many of you, but........

I was talking to a fellow RF member earlier today and we were both wondering why zeolite has to be used as the media? Why can't another media be used to grow this film and bacteria, then rinse it every evening feeding the coral and removing the waste through foam fractionation?

Jeremy,
From talking with Thomas who came up with the system he tried many different types of "media" and different types of zeolith. He found the type we are using with the system to work best. To say its the only would be silly on my part, but I don't know enough to try other types of media. don't apologize for having questions, we all do.

From my observations there's seems to be more to zeo than just limiting phosphates & nitrates. I run .02 phosphates in my system & my friend on zeo has the same levels(both tested on my photometer). Nitrates are zero. His corals are a lot lighter than than mine, almost washed out compared to mine. A better description would be pastel. We have several pieces that are from the same mother colony.
I run a skimmer & do water changes........no carbon, phosban, ozone, UV.

There definately is something else happening other than nutrient reduction with zeo. Anybody with any thoughts?

Like Madison said all systems are different. I know 3 people where I live that all have the same piece of coral from the same mother colony, none of them on zeovit and every piece looks different.

Do you know if you friend is running Start1 or Start2 with his system?

Scott

 

[Jeremy B.]

I am unfamiliar with what zeolites are actually composed of. From what I have heard there are many different uses of zeolith, as well as different types.

If the actual zeolith media is doing nothing more than providing surface area, it stands to reason that once someone does a chemical breakdown of the main 3 additives (ie... zeofood, zeobac, and zeostart) a lot of the "mystery" behind this would be solved.

The main question in my mind does the media only serve one purpose, surface area?

 

[fishcrazy]

The main question in my mind does the media only serve one person, surface area?

After reading through this thread, that's one of the same questions that I had. However, I didn't ask and you did.

 

[MikeS]

What would happen to a system that is used to being run with ozone and UV full time, getting turned off so you could start using the ZEOvit system? Mike/mojo - would a system like this have to be weaned off the use of mechanical filtration to use a more biological system?

Massive bacterial explosion and major flux would be my guess if stopped suddenly....definatey would have to either wean off or continute to use UV and O3....

I have 2 people on the system that I know for a fact ran UV 24/7. They had no effects switching to ZEOvit. Maybe Mike may have other ideas, I just know from the 2 people.

Did they stop running UV 24/7, or did they wean the tank off it? If so was this done prior to or after the introduction of the Zeovit system?

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

I am glad to see the zeo folks still participating in this thread. I like the way it has developed so far.

Thier are still a few msyteries to this system, and I dont think we will find out all about them as I am sure the inventor wants to protect his patents, which is what I would do.

The zeolites?? This one I am still not sure about. From research, various conversations and this thread I think thier exact purpose is still up in the air. I see two possibilities. One is that it is a zeolite That no bddy has found out yet that does have some kind of ion exchange properties. The arguement against that is that it is a natural process for ion exchange to be very rapid until the ion exchange is depeted. This would make the zeolites only function for a short period of time before being exhausted. The counter arguement is that that zeolites are covered in bacterial biofilm that inhibits the ion exchange, but does allow it at the point of when the zeolites are shaken in the reactor. This process grinds the zeolites against each other exposing portion of it, and thus short limited bursts of ion exchange. I can buy both arguements so far.
The other scenerio would seem to have more to do with the crystal structure of the zeolite. Although to the eye it seems to be pourious its not designed for bacteria to penetrate its pours (or at least from what I have seen so far) this would mean that bacteria would colonize the exterior surface and form biofilms to live and work in, as detritus enters the reactor it would be trapped and then probibly incorporated into or on the biofilm. The shaking of the zeolites with in the reactor would seem to be able to release portions of this biofilm/detritus (I believe Mulm is the name given to this buy the inventor).

I think the idea about ozone and UV is that it is counter productive to the maintaining of an artifical bacterial population. This would be a tough one for me, so will need to find a way around it.

From my observations there's seems to be more to zeo than just limiting phosphates & nitrates. I run .02 phosphates in my system & my friend on zeo has the same levels(both tested on my photometer). Nitrates are zero. His corals are a lot lighter than than mine, almost washed out compared to mine. A better description would be pastel. We have several pieces that are from the same mother colony.

This is very important! Running low nutrients and thus realizing great coloration is not something that is confined to the use of zeovit. Having a good husbandry practice and a well set up system can do the same thing. NOW in saying that thier is a definate difference in the corals between let say my BB system and a zeovit tank. Like BigE I have noticed the pale/pastel look of simular species of sps. The difference in look is definately due to a reduction in zoox population with in the coral.

Now here I am haing a problem again and need some help. I would say that a very low nutrient system will reduce any over population of zoox with in the corals, BUT not as much as I have seen displayed with in the corals shown by zeofolks. Zoox takes care of suppling up to 85 to 90% of the energy budjet of the corals, even using good lighting and crystal clear water you are not going to make the zoox more efficient at what they do. You still need a certain population base in order to meet the corals needs. In looking at the zeocorals (wow we are inventing alot of neat names here, lol) I dont see a population that would seem good enough to support them. So your corals are all dead or you are manipulating the percentages of food/energy source the corals are recieving. Example: in reducing the zoox input of food you are lowering the percentage of intake via light source (so say from 90% to 65%, just throwing out numbers) and are making up for it via this bacteria overload and physical capture.
This would explain why folks have had trouble coming off the system???? and the fact it takes a while for the results to show whn first starting the system??

Lets talk about this a bit more and try to look for some pros and cons to this idea


Mike

 

[Big E]

In looking at the zeocorals (wow we are inventing alot of neat names here, lol) I dont see a population that would seem good enough to support them. So your corals are all dead or you are manipulating the percentages of food/energy source the corals are recieving. Example: in reducing the zoox input of food you are lowering the percentage of intake via light source (so say from 90% to 65%, just throwing out numbers) and are making up for it via this bacteria overload and physical capture.

My thoughts exactly.........the main nutrition is coming from a secondary source that is dosed. That may also be the reason I see extended/extreme polyp extension in his zeo tank compared to mine on certain corals.

I've also seen comments from some zeo users that they lose color when the phosphates get below that .03-.02 range. A suggested solution was to add a food source(golden pearls) or amino acids. Imo, adding phosphate back into the system to get the colors back, more so than the corals actually consuming the food itself.


Guys I understand corals will look differently from system to system, but this pastel light look of the corals(depleted zoo)has been consistent from what I have seen in pictures & in person on all zeo tanks.

I think my friend is still using what he has left of Start 1. I'd like to add hasn't lost any corals since using zeo. I think he's about 7 months in.

 

[NaH2O]

If the source of nutrition is being influenced more on the consumption end rather than the zoox end, then wouldn't this put a strain on the corals? In the wild, don't the corals rely on 90+% (the + being arguable by some ) of their energy coming from the zoox? To me, it would seem like manipulating the food source would be stressful on the coral, and if an event happened in the tank, then it would be difficult to recover from that?

Scott, on the ozone and UV use, you mentioned there were a couple of folks using UV 24/7. Why is this OK? It seems like it would be killing the bacteria before it could be utilized.

 

[scottw]

Scott, on the ozone and UV use, you mentioned there were a couple of folks using UV 24/7. Why is this OK? It seems like it would be killing the bacteria before it could be utilized.

Sorry this was prior to starting ZEOvit. They went from using it 24/7, stopping it and started running zeovit. They had a small algae bloom but nothing big.

 

[mojoreef]

In the wild sps corals can get up to 98% of their energy budget from photosynthisis. They also need external food sources in order to grow the pigment protiens and to help with tissue growth, they dont get this from photo. The main ways of feeding for an sps coral beyond photo is either through direct absorbsion of nutrients from the water column or from slime netting active capture of critters (bacteria being the main one) I think the direct absorbsion in a zeo system is really not a player either as they tank has become so nutrient poor. Also the photo food source is depleted through the lack of active producing zoox. The concept then compensates by overdoses of bacteria (maybe gut loaded) to make up for this loss. Now coral do have the ability to convert to different enviroments and thrive. In the wild you can find the same species of sps in almost all types of enviroments on the reef. I think the key to this is a very slow entry into this system, not concentrating somuch on the nutrient and zoox depletion as much as allowing the corals to adapt to the changing enviroment. For me this would be a big key to starting this system and if we look at the general system guide from zeovit, it seems they are on the same page with that.
Ok lets look at some of the products being dosed here. Thie first is the zeobak, it is to be dose strongly of the first 14 days after new media is put in the reactor. and then one to two doses a weekly from thier. Now the instructions state that overdosing can lead to rtn in weak and damaged corals. So pretty much confirms the above, it has and big inpact on the corals metabolism as the enviroment changes, weaker corals cant make the transistion. It also say the product contains a chain of bacteria, ok I gues the standard nitrifiers, maybe some fuculative denitrifiers?? not sure about that though.
From here we go to the product called zeofood. which is a combination of bacteria once again and then aminos and vitamins to feed the bacteria. I am a little lost on the versions though?? So now we are adding more bacteria and then the AA's and vitamins to gut load the bacteria and then deliver those materials to the coral. Now it has been said that both AA's and vitamins are used up pretty quick in the bacteria as a source of thier energy budget, BUT (and some one correct me if I am remembering this wrong) nitrifing bacteria dont use it as a carbon source?? they use CO2 or carbonate for the carbon and then get thier energy by oxidizing inorganic compounds containing reduced nitrogen (NH4+, nitrite-)?? Now Free-Living Aerobic Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria do use AA's and vitamins as a source of carbon for thier own energy right?? So can one assume that thier is a posibility that these products do have a good chance at getting delivered?
Ok now zeostart is explained as food for nitrifing bacteria that reduces both phosphate and nitrate. Ok so I am a bit lost of the P reduction, so the question would be what food source for bacteria would allow for P reduction but owuld also lead to rtn, rapid growth of a visably brown or green bacterial biofilm???


Mike

 

[Boomer]

Well, I'm home and have not read any of the latest ZEO threads and will say Alex may be joining us. He has run some zeo tests and they should be finished next week, where he will have have some kind of results. If he has those results he wll be here.

Mojo.

Just a qiuck scan, some nice pionts you made.

get up to 98% of their energy budget from photosynthisis

Actually a little less than that if you still had your Sorokin And that is only for certain very high light acor's. I think that if you avg. out acro's more like +90 %

 

[mojoreef]

I think that if you avg. out acro's more like +90 %

And that would be where the UP TO comes into play



Mike

 

[Boomer]

OOp's I did not see that up-to :lol: I filtered it out of my scan :lol: