Butterfly Problems

[greenmonkey51]

Something is going on in my tank now. I lost my falcula butterfly last week, and now my semilavartus is looking thin and my klein's has an outbreak of lymphocytis. I'm wondering if my feeding is at fault. I usually feed once a day with either a a couple 1"x1" mysis blocks and a hikari angel or herbivore block or just one big block of mysis. I try to feed nori, but I'm not very good at remembering and I don't feed it often. All the butterflies eat redily anything I feed. Other tankmates are 2 McCoskers wrasse, a finespot wrasse, and a pearscale butterfly.

 

[krisfal]

In order to help you with this problem I believe Lee will need more information regarding your tank and you water quality. Please review this thread which outlines the information he would like to see http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29578

I hope you can get these butterflies healthy again and do not suffer further losses. I had a fish get lymphocytis and all the research I did indicated it was either a water quality or nutrition issue. Do you add vitamins and fats to your food? I was able to clear up the lympho on my angel pretty quickly after beginning to add Zoecon and Selcon to my feedings. I also stepped up the water changes in the QT to ensure good water quality.

 

[leebca]

Butterflyfishes can be challenging, but once acclimated, they can do very well. They take a bit more attention than many other marine fishes. There is no telling how they were handled through the system (starting with how they were collected and 'stored'), nor whether they had been properly acclimated along the way. Their sensitivity to the environment is very much the cause of 'delayed death.' Klein's and Falcula are relatively hardy Butterflyfishes, though.

I can make the following observations:
1. I'd say your live rock quantity is about 90 lbs less than what is preferred;
2. You provided no calcium nor magnesium concentrations. If they aren't 425 ppm and 1175 ppm respectively, then the chemistry is off;
3. Feeding - quantity and quality is off (see below);
4. A possible water quality problem;
5. A combo of 3 & 4.

1. About 2 lbs per gallon in the system is a good target for marine fish keeping.

2. Assuming your previous post indicating an Alkalinity of 9 dKh is still true, these are the balanced quantities of Calcium and Magnesium. The reason why I'm a bit suspicious of this is that that pH doesn't represent a good buffer balance. On the other hand, I don't know how you are taking or verifying the pH and the other quantities.

3. I don't think that one can reasonably keep Butterflyfishes without providing them food at least 3 times a day. Most of these fishes are very thin. They don't 'bulk up' very much. That is to say, they don't store energy in large quantities like some other fishes. The Raccoon is a bit of an exception -- it will bulk up very nicely.

When a fish has little reserves to fall back on when under stress, it lives on a from-day-to-day basis. Thus the need for frequent and very nutritious meals. Mysis is not a staple food for Butterflyfishes -- even the ones that do live on pods. Is the mysis from the ocean or freshwater? Be skeptical and critical of your choices of foods. If you read and compare the nutrition post to what you are doing, you'll find your plan is very far different than the recommended plan. Best to read it again and begin to follow the suggestions here: Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition.

4. Butterflyfishes are very sensitive to water quality. They are not very forgiving. Less than perfect water quality creates stress and as previously mentioned, there is not much energy for the fish to have a 'fall-back' plan to survive. What advanced aquarists are sensitive to is how water quality goes far beyond temp, salinity, pH, and the things that we test for. Look for poisons and other problems outlined here: What is Water Quality.

5. Signs of a viral infection like Lymphocystis indicates the fish is under stress. This can be simply from 3. or 4. or a combo of the two. Look to these to solve your mystery. It seems like your fish are surviving marginally and not thriving. You'll have to be the investigator here, unless you have more information to share.

 

[greenmonkey51]

I do agree that I need to get some more rock, I've been upgrading other parts of the system lately, namely the skimmer. What would be a better alternative to mysis. All my frozen food is Hikari. I've alway found Hikari to be good. I haven't tested calcium or magnesium for a while, since I've been getting pretty good coraline growth. Everytime I test the quality I alway get 0's. My ph is probably off, since the kit is about at the one year mark. I will start feeding more and more often. I assumed everything was fine before, since not one fish showed signs of being less than perfect till the falcula.

 

[leebca]

The 'thing' about nutrition is that it sneaks up on you. Or put better, it catches up to the life of the fish. Things appear to be going well, when they are actually slowly degrading.

People assume that if the fish is eating then it must be 'happy.' But what choice does the fish have but to eat what is put into the tank? It's up to the hobbyist to figure out what should go into the tank, and how frequently, and how much (quantity). :eek2:

That post on fish health through nutrition I referred you to has it all in it -- all the alternatives and variety -- including vitamin and fat supplements our marine fishes must have. If you have me list what to feed 'other than mysis' I'd be writing a couple of pages which are in fact in that post. The oceans provide the hobbyist with a huge number of appropriate choices.

You must first determine what category the fish is in: herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore. Then determine what kinds of foods that fish eats in the wild. Then from the above mentioned post, find the foods that are most natural and complete (whole) that apply and provide a wide variety, frequently and with supplements. Just keep in mind, our marine fishes only eat seafood.

I would take a mo however to say this about algae feeding. Most hobbyist don't provide enough macro algae to the omnivores and herbivores. The way to determine if you are providing them enough veggies is to put a piece of macro algae into the tank (clip, on a rock, etc.). If the algae is consumed totally in less than a hour, then you didn't put enough in. What you want is to see a tiny bit of uneaten macro algae (on the clip or rock or floating around) about an hour after putting it into the tank -- then you know you are adding the right amount. AND, you want to provide macro algae no less than twice a day. Keep adjusting the quantity until you find the amount they eat in about an hour.

Good luck!

 

[greenmonkey51]

So should I be feeding a blender mix of shrimp, scallops and other whole foods mentioned.

 

[leebca]

Shrimp tails and scallop meat are not whole foods. There is a fair selection of prepackaged, frozen marine fish foods to choose from. Vary the diet and include vitamins and fat supplements. If you want to make your own fish food, then you'll want to use a variety of ocean whole foods depending upon the kinds of fish you'll be feeding.

 

[greenmonkey51]

Can you please give me a couple examples of the prepackaged foods and some whole foods.

 

[leebca]

I don't give any recommendations for prepared foods. I do however offer advice on what to look for in prepared foods. For instance part of what you want is what the fish should be eating; only things from the sea; and whole foods when possible. You need to read the label closely. Things to avoid and things that are positive are in the post I provided and mentioned now, three times.

I have an entire list of whole foods that meet the above requirements -- in this post: Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition. As for the best form for the food, read this post: Different Marine Fish Food Forms.

Perhaps the pattern isn't clear: If its in the post, I won't repeat it. :evil:

 

[greenmonkey51]

1. When you talk about shrimp, you mean that the head should still be on.

2.Is there something I'm missing with scallops. I thought that the meat is all you can get out of a scallop. Is there more edible parts that stores just don't sell. I figured theres the meat and the shell. Fish can't eat the shell.

3.I found something though that had changed recently. With the old skimmer pump, the temp ran at 82. With the new one the temp is running at 77. Is this something that could of caused problems. I don't know how fast it changed, but I can't imagine it was very quick.

4. Are pellets a good option to put in blender mixes. I have NLS that I feed another tank with regularly and occasionally the salt tank.

 

[leebca]

1. and 2. Just when you wrote 'other whole foods' neither shrimp tails nor scallop meat is a whole food. They are worthy ingredients, but they are not 'whole.' Whole krill would be a fine replacement for ocean, human table, shrimp tails.

3. Probably unlikely that the temperature charged quickly, as you suspect. All temperature changes require the fish to invest energy to help stabilize itself internally. This connects to the previous mentioned lack of reserves to handle the change. That is to say: undernourished fish will be more affected by temperature change than those properly nourished.

4. No. Read the ingredients. See post.

 

[greenmonkey51]

Of the non olbigate coralivore butterflies, are there lots that have pods as main source of nourishment.

 

[leebca]

There are a few that specialize in such foods, and some that round out their usual diet with pods. You can usually tell by the shape of their 'mouth.' If they have the longish nose like on the Copperband Butterflyfish then they are 'built' for pod picking out of crevices, substrate, and rock. A few others will adapt to eating pods, but if that isn't their whole diet, the feeding of pods should be limited, or a smalllish percentage of a home made recipe.

 

[greenmonkey51]

I'm having an extremely hard time finding any prepared foods that don't include gel binders. I have found a way to feed the gel foods and I try to, but I don't like them for constant feedings. Do you know any brands that have the whole foods without gel binders. Or am I better off with homemade. I know that rod's food have this, but 20$ for 6oz is crazy.

 

[roscoe]

Yeah Rods food is good stuff. It is spendy. I also thought to myself when i bought it this won't last no more than a couple of weeks. Well I've had it for 2months now and have another week worth left and I am a heavy feeder also.

 

[leebca]

As noted in the post, foods with algae gel binders are pretty good, in the sense that nutrients go into the fish rather than into the water column. The binder traps the nutrients and the food is 'juiceless.' The foods to avoid are those that use wheat and land product binders.

For that price, you can buy a lot of prepared (good) marine foods from your LFS.

Why is it you don't like the frozen foods with gel binders? How do you use it to feed the fish?

 

[greenmonkey51]

I found an algae clip that has a sort of plastic netting on it that holds the food in. Is there an easier way to feed. I found that just throwing it in, the fish pick at it, but eventually it gets stuck in a rock and the fish can't find it anymore.

 

[leebca]

That 'net on a clip' idea was meant to serve the food over a longer period of time. It is clever IF the fish get the hang of it. If you only have one or two fishes eating this food, it may be hard to get them to come close to the clip. In my tank with many fishes there is usually one or two that are bold enough to come up to something new pretty fast after it is put into their tank. The rest follow.

Here's a couple of suggestions. One may work better than another, depending upon the quantity of food you have to deal with.

1. Take a still frozen cube and thinly slice it, then dice it into tiny bits the right size for those fish eating it. Ideally you don't touch the food with your bare hands. Let thaw and feed.

2. Get a small electric chopper. Thoroughly clean it, preferably never use soaps or chemicals -- just hot tap water and then plenty of rinses with distilled water. Put the container and blade(s) of the chopper in the refrigerator overnight. Take an entire container of cubes and let them thaw in the the refrigerator. While still cold, chop the cubes in the chopper. Put cold pieces into the smallest sealable freezer bags you can find. Freeze the entire bag(s). Take out the portion you use to feed and keep the rest frozen, let thaw the portion to feed and serve up the chopped bits like you would if it were pellets.

I've used graters, cheese graters and all sorts of contraptions, but in the end the electric chopper did the fastest and best job when everything (chopper and food) was cold from the refrigerator. You can control the size of the pieces of food by how long you run the chopper. So you chop less for bigger fishes that want big chunks; you chop longer for fishes that want small bits. If you have a mix of fish, then you can go half and half and blend the two before bagging and freezing. If the chopped food has too many tiny bits that the fish won't eat, use a cold fish net to 'sieve' the food while it is cold -- tiny bits go through the net openings and separate from the larger bits as you shake the net (best to cover the net with another net).

Set the chopper aside to be used for only this purpose and clean immediately when done using it (hot water; no soap; rinse with distilled). When it is dry, bag that in a sealable bag until it is needed again, then the parts go back into the fridge the day before you chop. Don't put the motor of the chopper into the fridge.

Hope the above helps.

 

[greenmonkey51]

I'm now thinking of removing my semilavartus and putting it into QT for fattening up. Would this be a good idea. I have increased feeding and I'm starting to feed some different things. I haven't been able to get any supplements yet.

 

[leebca]

I don't think it would be a good idea IF the fish is eating where it currently resides. If you think it is not getting its fair share or being kept away from food, then separation is a good idea. If you think the fish is finicky and it won't eat a wide variety of the foods it should be eating, then separating it for eating training is a good idea.

The chase and capture would be counter-productive if the fish is getting its fill at meal times where it is now.

All the above relates to foods and feedings. If there is or are health reasons to separate the fish, then separation overrides the above concerns.