Calcium Inhibits Coral Growth

[Boomer]

Yes but the fact remains correct?? the cell can not devide in the presence of calcium with in it? and cell devision is growth correct? And in the case of SPS who can see growth anyways??

Says who at what levels of Ca ++ and under what conditions ? Growth or lack of growth under high Ca++, you are assuming is due to high Ca++. I'm still waitng for my ref on this form you There is a peer-reviewed article that shows coral grow faster under high Ca++ conditions, IIRC 500 ppm Ca++ but Chris has refuted this as they way they ran the experiment.

Sure it does.

How ?

Also dont most these MG/Sr replacements evetually become replaced themselves??

?? How does Mg++ or Sr++ replace itself if it is not there ?? That explanation of yours needs some explaining of what you mean. What is replacement, i.e, adding additives ?? As far as you sentence goes it sounds you are taking replacement as in aragonite shifting to calcite during fossilization or in early marine diagenesis, called ACT or Neomorphism. Or do you mean if there is not Mg++ or Sr++ it is just replaced with Ca++ or some other ion like Uranium, Barium Lithium ?

Afraid of doing the leg work are we, hehehe Ok how long do I have to run until it goes off???

Nope, it takes lots of time to try and read a gazillion articles on the subject, try to explain them all, when I can an just bring the expert there to fix all up. In this hobby, be it coral biology or seawater chemistry Chris is the #1 guy for me This guy is reallllllllly smart.

 

[mojoreef]

Says who at what levels of Ca ++ and under what conditions ? Growth or lack of growth under high Ca++, you are assuming is due to high Ca++. I'm still waitng for my ref on this form you There is a peer-reviewed article that shows coral grow faster under high Ca++ conditions, IIRC 500 ppm Ca++ but Chris has refuted this as they way they ran the experiment.

Ok Ok I will be more clear. Most folks in the hobby concider growth and the overall growth of what they see in their tank. The coral (lets say the sps) is actually just the tissue that surrounds the coral, the skelton is an deposit area that is created as a result of calcium being percipatated from the corals tissue. So as Sid mentioned for lack of a better word, a dump. Now in a perfcetly healthy coral in the wild that about what...2 cells deep? So now lets bring it back to topic, Because what we only see is the overall growth we are seeing both tissue (coral) and skelital (dump) growth. So when folks have a highly elevated level of calcium (more then normal) they are seeing what they percieve as elevated growth, BUT at which relationship?? 75% growth excelleration of skeliton?? and only 25% excelleration in tissue?? In almost all conditions it would be pretty easy to assume its skelital and not tissue as tissue growth comes more from nutrients and unless nutrients (and the different means in which corals get them) was elevated to accomidate the growth ratio between them is going to be way out of balance. So the skeliton is growing but is the tissue keeping up?? and old fart once told me its kind of like humans and steriods?? you take the steriods and you grow like crazy, But what does it do to your overall health?? or the balance of your growth??
Anyway the more important thing is the energy budget. If you elevate your calcium it means the coral is going to have to budget more of its already Finite budget to the process of calcium pumping to remove the calcium from the cell in order to divide its cells (growth). Since its budget is restricted (as in it cant all of sudden increase its biological intake unless its available) its got to take that energy from something else?? What?? Photos?? defence?? food capture?? immune system?? anyone of these would be harmful to a critter that lives on the edge already??

?? How does Mg++ or Sr++ replace itself if it is not there ??

Yea I got to dig, I pulled that one from memory so now I got to dig into the cobb webs to find what I was talking about:badgrin:

Nope, it takes lots of time to try and read a gazillion articles on the subject, try to explain them all, when I can an just bring the expert there to fix all up

Thats cheating!!

Mojoreef

 

[mojoreef]

Frankie, Ronnies article doesnt really deal with what we or you are talking about to be honest and it is so flawed its ridiculas, I remember when it came out, so lets let that puppy sleep in the corner

After getting into this probiotic method K+ seems to be the leading element being depleted from the water. More so a problem then Ca++ losses in a heavy stocked established reef. there are debates on what is causing this, from what is being told the element is not reoccurring like Ca++ and Mg. but actually being removed from the water.

Oh yea and Boomer thought I opened up a can full of worms lol. I guess in a way what you are talking about is the reason we are hear having this conversation about calcium. Folks are sitting their screwing with a corals biology (that it took a whole lot of time to perfect) for the sake of a little more growth or perhaps a deeper shade of red? When I look at that kind of stuff I just got to shake my head and wonder how or why they come up with these things. How do you know the short term effect on all the many processing being done, the long term effect, so on and so forth. I know the zeovit method and I will not agrue against it or for it, but the whole idea that we can screw with a corals natural biology just scares me

Mike

 

[Frankie]

That q is addressed in the link I provided:

Implicit in such a management plan, although seldom directly stated, is the feeling that organisms somehow "use up," "change," or "consume" many of these chemicals, and in doing so, forever remove the chemicals from that reef aquarium system. This assumption is not completely false, some chemicals are "used up" and removed from the system, but most are not. Organisms are dynamic entities, and while some chemicals are temporarily sequestered away, such chemicals generally remain available in the system due to metabolic turnover. The only real exceptions to this as far as organisms are concerned are those chemicals, such as calcium, which get incorporated into an insoluble matrix. Once the chemical is removed from solution, even if that matrix, such as a coral skeleton or clam shell, remains in the aquarium, it is beyond the use of most organisms.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, Ronnies article doesnt really deal with what we or you are talking about to be honest and it is so flawed its ridiculas, I remember when it came out, so lets let that puppy sleep in the corner


Oh yea and Boomer thought I opened up a can full of worms lol. I guess in a way what you are talking about is the reason we are hear having this conversation about calcium. Folks are sitting their screwing with a corals biology (that it took a whole lot of time to perfect) for the sake of a little more growth or perhaps a deeper shade of red? When I look at that kind of stuff I just got to shake my head and wonder how or why they come up with these things. How do you know the short term effect on all the many processing being done, the long term effect, so on and so forth. I know the zeovit method and I will not agrue against it or for it, but the whole idea that we can screw with a corals natural biology just scares me

Mike

It's screwing with them when we add them to our systems full of synthetic salt mixes and purified methods of freshwater. All zeovit's main goal is to get back to the natural state these corals come from originally in the first place. Not altering there colors to better please our eye but what that coral was meant to look like in the first place. Corals are not just shades of brown and green in the ocean. They get that way in our aquariums due to nutrient buildup in the water.

I agree though that I am looking for my K+ answers in the wrong thread. So I will let the subject go.

 

[mojoreef]

Ok so your wondering if potassium is taken up, or made unavailable to organisms in the tank??

Oh yea and if your in chat you should say something, lol

Mojo

 

[mojoreef]

It's screwing with them when we add them to our systems full of synthetic salt mixes and purified methods of freshwater

Yea we do the best we can with what we got.

All zeovit's main goal is to get back to the natural state these corals come from originally in the first place. Not altering there colors to better please our eye but what that coral was meant to look like in the first place.

Ok well that must have been a C change since the last time we talked about zeovit, but it has been a little while.

Corals are not just shades of brown and green in the ocean. They get that way in our aquariums due to nutrient buildup in the water.

Actually most are. But to be honest your entering a whole other topic here. and a good one, if you want start a new thread and we can talk about it.

I feel a Boomer tsunami coming on so I am going to grab my rain gear.

Mojo

 

[Frankie]

LOL

 

[Dalbery]

Ouch my head is hurting. This is going against everything I've read and heard. I'd really just like to know what parameters to run my tank at. Is that really too much to ask So where are you recomending to run all these levels PH included as it is looking like PH is a bigger key than what most are saying.
Thanks

 

[mojoreef]

Well its always good to know how things work, that way you get a better understanding,

This is going against everything I've read and heard.

Yea thats one of the reasons for the thread, their alot of stuff out thier, but biology is biology and its been the same for a long time.

The concept of all of this corals live and have adapted their biology in our oceans, so it would be best to keep them in as close to that as we can?? Now their can be a little varience but its fairly close. Go back to the beging of the thread and take a peek at the marble post, that should give you an easy idea on what levels and how they adjust slightly.Mike

 

[Frankie]

Ouch my head is hurting. This is going against everything I've read and heard. I'd really just like to know what parameters to run my tank at. Is that really too much to ask So where are you recomending to run all these levels PH included as it is looking like PH is a bigger key than what most are saying.
Thanks

It may hurt a bit but I am finding this topic very educating. I am far from a biologist and require a yearly dose of this abuse in order to stay interested in this hobby How can we be successful if we do not have a basic understanding of the nature of all things?

 

[spllbnd2]

WOW! After reading through all this IMO Boomer has given a great argument.

I would like to know where the scientific evidence is that shows or states that excess calcium levels in a reef tank will kill or inhibit coral growth. I think that if all our parameters are as close to NSW, our systems should not inhibit/kill any of our corals that we keep under our care.

I still like to refer people to the article in this link as it gives good reference to different elements found in NSW and their natural levels.
Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


Just to give a quick excerpt quote from the article on Calcium;
"Many corals use calcium to form their skeletons, which are composed primarily of calcium carbonate. The corals get most of the calcium for this process from the water surrounding them. Consequently, calcium often becomes depleted in aquaria housing rapidly growing corals, calcareous red algae, Tridacnids and Halimeda. As the calcium level drops below 360 ppm, it becomes progressively more difficult for the corals to collect enough calcium, thus stunting their growth."

 

[spllbnd2]

And here's yet another scientific article about Calcium and the Chemistry that I find has good information.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

Just my 2¢ on the subject at hand and not meant to step on anyones toes. I always enjoy over analyzing subjects that peek my interest, such as reefkeeping.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[mojoreef]

spllbnd2
Boomer is not argueing against what I am saying?

I would like to know where the scientific evidence is that shows or states that excess calcium levels in a reef tank will kill or inhibit coral growth. I think that if all our parameters are as close to NSW, our systems should not inhibit/kill any of our corals that we keep under our care.

Every single scientific study done on coral growth, states that in order for coral to grow (as cell division) it needs to remove calcium from with in its cell structure first. This tells you that the presence of calcium in the cells stops/prevents/inhibits the process. I can list these studies but thier are thousands and it is a know thing.

Here is where I think folks are misunderstanding. On a coral such as a SPS, the coral is the tissue that surrounds the skeliton. The skeliton is a place the coral deposits calcium that it removes from with in its cells. So not a living part of the coral, just a deposit zone. At normal levels of calcium the coral donates an amount of its energy buget through the creation of an enzyne (ATPase) that fuels the calcium pump that allows the calcium to be removed from within its cellular structure. When you raise your calcium to very elevated levels (above normal) you are making the coral donate more ATPase to the process of calcium removal. So this then takes this energy away from other processes the coral needs to feed, these processes included defence system, immune system, growth, photosynthesis and all the other processes a coral has to do.

So yes the higher levels of calcium are increasing the deposit of calcium on the skeliton (a nonliving part of the coral) but in the same breath are talking away from the coral very limited energy budget in order to achieve it. So nice big skeliton, and more weak coral.

At NSW levels you have a regulated growth ratio, as in the growth of the coral (tissue) grows at a level equal to the deposition level (calcification) of the corals skeliton. When you increase the levels of calcium present in the tank you are going to get a higher level of calcification (skeliton growth) and a lower level of tissue growth (as the coral is donating much more energy to calcium removal).
The effect from this can be seen in several ways, one is rapid growth of the coral and its skeliton and then sudden death or downturn on parameter events. Tip burn where the tissue is to thin on the tips and is suceptable to burn or oxygenation. But the overall is that weakening the corals overall health by forcing it to reduce its energy budget to accomidate calcium removal to me just does not seem worth the slight extra skeliton growth you see by keeping your level so high.

In regards to Randys article I dont see anything that relates? Yes having to little calcium will reduce the growth of the corals skeliton. The skeliton serves its purpose, it allows the coral to have/create more surface area for it to complete its photosynthisis, BUT that comes at a price. Over the millions of years of coral evolution the corals have developed a method and an energy budget to accomplish these things, screwing with it by altering the parameters in your tanks, goes against it.

Hope it helps


Mojo

 

[Scooterman]

The concept of all of this corals live and have adapted their biology in our oceans, so it would be best to keep them in as close to that as we can?? Now their can be a little varience but its fairly close. Go back to the beging of the thread and take a peek at the marble post, that should give you an easy idea on what levels and how they adjust slightly.Mike

How much variances is there from different coral reefs throughout the world? Temp. sg, ca etc?

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Spllbnd its all good, taking about it and explaining it is how we all learn, no toe stepping at all.

From the article you referenced above.

In the case of corals, calcification takes place external to the organism. If one thinks of corals as tissue coating a calcium carbonate skeleton, then calcification takes place underneath the lowest layer of tissue

there is a calcium/proton antiporter that takes calcium from the interior of the calicoblastic epithelium and pumps it into the ECF. At the same time that each calcium ion enters the ECF, two protons are pumped back out of the ECF into the cell. Since both of these processes are transporting against a concentration gradient, it requires substantial energy. The energy in this case is provided by one adenosine triphosphate molecule (ATP) in the cell being broken down into adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and phosphate (a common driving mechanism for many transporters).

Mojo

 

[Krish]

I now see why I stick to general discussion and not venture too much into the advanced section LOL! Great discussion nonetheless. On a side note, if it will be beneficial to anyone here on the forum, when I get my new test kits, I can go out and see what the readings are around here (calcium, alk, mag, ph etc) and even salinty. I can get samples from different locations and make a note of what kinds of corals etc are there, at what depths or whatever.

 

[DonW]

How much variances is there from different coral reefs throughout the world? Temp. sg, ca etc?

I think you really see the substantial differences due to changes in ph. Obviously we play the biggest part in that with all the co2 pollution. Really IMO the best set of stats would come from 75 to 100 years ago.

Don

 

[spllbnd2]

How much variances is there from different coral reefs throughout the world? Temp. sg, ca etc?

I believe there is to some degree quite a bit. Our waters here in the Puget Sound Region do not have as high of a SG as the Carribean. Also the waters all around the world have varying temeratures, SG and I assume would also have differing other values.

 

[DonW]

I now see why I stick to general discussion and not venture too much into the advanced section LOL! Great discussion nonetheless. On a side note, if it will be beneficial to anyone here on the forum, when I get my new test kits, I can go out and see what the readings are around here (calcium, alk, mag, ph etc) and even salinty. I can get samples from different locations and make a note of what kinds of corals etc are there, at what depths or whatever.

Actually I think that would be mighty cool. If you can add the lon/lat of the testing area so we can see it on a map.

Don