Clamtastrophe

[Barry N.]

one of them had just started to spawn when I put it in the FW.

We have done FWD on a lot of customers clams that bring them into the store and have never had one spawn after the dip. Spawn is caused by stress. Make sure the water temp is the same as the tank water and use RO water.

I would recommend do some water changes after the spawn. Add some activated carbon and clean out your shimmer if you have one.

Since we installed UV's a few years ago, we hardly ever seen PM in our systems.

IME, dipping maximas is a roll of the dice, they don't seen to handle the dip like croceas do.

As some of you know, I have been working on this project for over 3 years now and have built up a data base of information that I have read on these threads of problem, treatments and other things and I still come back to my my thinking process that I have had for a few years.

The lab that we have been working with has had to put our research on the back burner since they are now doing some lobster work. The lobster project has been more time consuming then they originally anticipated. This lobster project is also what Dave's thesis is based on. With that in mind, they have also found it frustrating that they have not had time to give to the therapy portion of the Tridacna work which is what you really need but we haven't wanted to rush at anything either. My best prediction is that towards the end of December or the New Year, we can start our therapy also with the guidance of Ian Bricknell.

I know this has been a slow process but since they are not charging me for the lab time and just the cost of slide for histopathology (examination of diseased tissue) culture of hemolymph/blood (to detect the presence of organisms by growing them in special media) histopathology report.

 

[TWallace]

Just an update, my derasa still looks fantastic in my QT today. Whatever was killing the other clams and making this derasa unhappy is not present in the QT. The QT water is normally old water from the main system. My normal water change routine is to mostly empty the QT, then fill it back up with display tank water, then perform a water change on the display tank with newly mixed water. However, this time I drained 90% of the QT water and replaced it with newly mixed water before I added the clam. So 10% of the water in it is from the display tank, so it could still have something in the water that killed the other clams.

 

[tamarindthai]

maybe watch for predator after dark,,night v camera?

 

[barrierreefcf]

UV/Ozone question:

Ozone on our display but no UV.
Neither on the Elos system.

 

[TWallace]

I don't run ozone or UV and normally I don't run carbon either. Until this month, I wasn't running a skimmer either for the past 6 months. Those were happier times, it seems .

 

[TWallace]

Just want to share my experience with one of my maxima clam kill by an angel. I use to have two angel (Lemon peel & Flame). Both have been good fish without distrubing my corals for 1/2 a year until one day i discover my clams being stress and i started to investigate.

I even did a FW dipped and cause the maxima to spawn (actually that clam was already at a very stress state)

Finally, i found out it was my lemon peel nipping at the clam once or twice a day and cuase the clam to be stress without any good chance to grow. It maybe an isolated case but i'm sure that angel do like to peck here and there making coral stress with their presence. They will slowly refuse to open wide to gather enough food
( I therefore "presume" that even pecking once a day without actually targeting will also cause stress to clams).

I could be wrong and just sharing a different thought.

When your angel was pecking at your clams, how did they react? Did they close up their shells, or leave them open but retract their mantles? I've seen my flame angel peck at croceas before. When he did it, they always closed up their shells in response. These clams I had that died did not do that. They left their shells open, but the mantle wasn't extending normally. This leads me to believe that whatever killed my clams was not a fish.

I'm thinking it was a water quality issue (alk/temp fluctuations perhaps, as I believe DonW suggested), maybe (unlikely I think) related to the epsom salt I added to boost magnesium, or possibly a predator/pathogen that I don't see. I don't see pyramidellid snails, but maybe there's some other small predator that bothers clams, as well?

 

[TWallace]

Out of curiosity, how many of you who are having clams die have angels in your tank, or any other fish that is likely to bother clams? I know Mike has/had a majestic angel in his tank. I don't think Barrier Reef has an angel in either their display or their Elos tank by the door, but I could be wrong. I'm having issues with people on RC that are stuck on the suggestion that my flame angel killed my clams and that everyone in my area having issues also has fish killing clams. Sometimes I wish it were possible to slap people through the internet. :badgrin:

 

[Herefishyfishy]

It isn't the angel, but I always suspected my Alk spike triggered the die off, probably weakened them and made them susceptible to disease. I rarely get anything from RC other than group flame and wannabe "me toos" in lieu of individual logical reasoning . Honestly, the only postings I make there is to buy equipment. The Flame might smoke, but it doesn't inhale. If the clams stayed closed due to getting ripped on, that is another matter. I used to have a lawn mower blenny that developed a taste for baby maximas. Became a gift to Salmonslayer. He forgot why I gave it away and it started munching on his fancy Zoas:lol:

I shouldn't laugh, I was partly responsible. I once had a Coral beauty developed a taste for leathers, it got traded off with full disclosure too.

 

[barrierreefcf]

Nope no angels in any of the tanks we had problems in. In general we've given up on keeping angels w/ clams. I know it works out sometimes but more often than not they nip at them enough to weaken or kill them. In our experience it usually starts out as a casual nip and then gets more frequent. The clams start by closing when nipped and then reopening. We suspect that as it becomes more frequent and the clams are forced to close more often they begin to become stressed and feed/store energy less. Eventually they die. Some of the PM symptoms are there but not until right before they die(24hours before death).

 

[jesseb]

I have a flame angel - I've never seen it nipping on the clams - it's also in a large tank - and very well fed... lots of grazing materials as well...

 

[skinz78]

I am one of the people on reef central that TWallace is referring too. I beleve he has 2 angels some cleaner shrimp and mithrax crabs. All of wich have been known to be problematic for reefers with clams in the past. I myself had a coral beauty that I had to remove due to nipping on clams. I never seen it nip but as soon as I removed it from my tank it was like I flicked a swich. The clams were better. I have 27

Since the 1 angel has been seen nipping I think it is the culprit.

One other possibility I am wondering about is have any of you tested for copper in your tanks? Do you have copper plumbing?

 

[Jan]

I used to have a lawn mower blenny that developed a taste for baby maximas. Became a gift to Salmonslayer. He forgot why I gave it away and it started munching on his fancy Zoas

Hah...I was at Tracy's house looking at his tank with him when your/his lawnmower blenny swam over and nipped one of his clams. :lol:

I had two clams a baby from BR and a med-sized crocea and they were happy until after I added an eyelash blenny. Then they were distinctly unhappy and the baby clam would barely open his shell. Luckily I had a second tank to move them into and they are both doing fine in there.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

One other possibility I am wondering about is have any of you tested for copper in your tanks? Do you have copper plumbing?

Good question, almost all homes today have copper plumbing, but one would assume that the RODI unit which shows zero TDS and the carbon would take care of it. Additionally, all corals, snails, inverts, pods, sponges, etc are thriving and I doubt that the copper would be that specific. Three of my clams were up on top of the reef where the fish don't ever venture. (Haven't tested for copper.)

 

[Wonder]

When your angel was pecking at your clams, how did they react? Did they close up their shells, or leave them open but retract their mantles? I've seen my flame angel peck at croceas before. When he did it, they always closed up their shells in response. These clams I had that died did not do that. They left their shells open, but the mantle wasn't extending normally. This leads me to believe that whatever killed my clams was not a fish.

I'm thinking it was a water quality issue (alk/temp fluctuations perhaps, as I believe DonW suggested), maybe (unlikely I think) related to the epsom salt I added to boost magnesium, or possibly a predator/pathogen that I don't see. I don't see pyramidellid snails, but maybe there's some other small predator that bothers clams, as well?

They initially close up their shells but becomes weaker and weaker due to lack of chance to gather food. What makes me did the FW dipped was because their shells couldn't close up like normal and mantle retracted. This actually is a very stress signal IMO (dying state without enough energy) and i was not sure what was the cause at that time. Until i seen with my own eyes that the lemon peel peck at other clams after the spawning (too late). You can actually see the mantle with bite mark (very small pale brown/black patch on the mantle) That make me determine to take out mine

I must agree that Flame is a lot safer than lemon peel but i did not want to take any more chance

 

[jesseb]

One of my clams never showed any issues (still isn't) - I put it in the FW dip with the others just as a precaution. All tank parameters are normal or better. I also have a large number of snails, feather worms, sponges, LPS and SPS corals cleaner shrimp (who never ventures up where the clams are), emerald crabs and urchins... - all of whom seem to be fine,

This problem is very clam specific - my flame angel has been in the tank at least 10 months (he was a little guy)... and the clams have been doing exceptional until last week. Everything is well-fed - so picking that is done is general grazing around the tank.

They all (with the exception of the one) "came down" with whatever was ailing them suddenly and within a day or two of one another. Their mantle extension had never been an issue until this began. The two that are left - the one that has seemed fine looks as good as ever - huge extension of mantle. The other one has its mantle out - though it's been extended further - but at least is no longer pinching.

This seems to me to be not water related, but some kind of clam-specific pathogen. I'll have the water tested elsewhere to check my test kits - though none are that old and are Salifert. I'll likely add a UV to the tank in the near future - but I'm more concerned with potential source of the problem? Without having added any living things (last things I added were fish) for a few months I'd like to figure out how this got introduced. I make my own R/O and saltwater for changes - R/O filters have been changed in the last month in regular maintenance.

 

[DonW]

If you loose more than one clam it very well could be a water issue. I'm not saying this is what happened but an example of what could happen. Keep in mind sick clams are polluters wether they are already dead or not as they are dieing they are gross. If you have an fish that is bothering a clam only late at night your not going to see it. If that clam starts to die he will cause water quality issues that will directly effect the other clams causing a domino effect.
One reasons we see so many clam deaths is because so many people are now keeping clams.
I personally dont think this is some huge mystery outbreak. Clams in the past were kept by people in very controlled tanks with no crabs, angels or other things that may bother them. Reef keepers have become more relaxed and are pushing the envelope believing that if they dont see it its not happening. We have so many people claiming to keep clams with angel and their clams are doing fine. What they are not telling you is that they have only had the clam for 6 months, a few months later we see another one of these threads. Although there are many many more people keeping clams than there were just 3 years ago, clams are still very delicate. There is something in the tank or the reefkeepers that are causing these domino effect deaths. You just have to dig deeper, even if it means not keeping clams, removing your beloved angels or even testing the tank water 5 times a day for a month.

Don

 

[CRASHFIREJOE]

My 6 inch Maxima just died same symptoms as listed. I had it for over a year was very happy until 2 weeks ago it started to not show and finally died 2 days ago. Water parameters great all other inhabitants no change.

 

[jesseb]

If you loose more than one clam it very well could be a water issue. I'm not saying this is what happened but an example of what could happen. Keep in mind sick clams are polluters wether they are already dead or not as they are dieing they are gross. If you have an fish that is bothering a clam only late at night your not going to see it. If that clam starts to die he will cause water quality issues that will directly effect the other clams causing a domino effect.
One reasons we see so many clam deaths is because so many people are now keeping clams.
I personally dont think this is some huge mystery outbreak. Clams in the past were kept by people in very controlled tanks with no crabs, angels or other things that may bother them. Reef keepers have become more relaxed and are pushing the envelope believing that if they dont see it its not happening. We have so many people claiming to keep clams with angel and their clams are doing fine. What they are not telling you is that they have only had the clam for 6 months, a few months later we see another one of these threads. Although there are many many more people keeping clams than there were just 3 years ago, clams are still very delicate. There is something in the tank or the reefkeepers that are causing these domino effect deaths. You just have to dig deeper, even if it means not keeping clams, removing your beloved angels or even testing the tank water 5 times a day for a month.

Don

I don't fundamentally disagree with you. That said, I can't see water quality issues that changed so quickly to cause 3 of 4 clams to have an issue (I can't see any reason why it would be 3 of 4 quite honestly - though could surmise a few). I've made no real changes in the system since a year ago and have been surprised at my own diligence on maintenance (other than adding some fish). I'm struggling to see how it's a chemistry problem:

• It's a well established, 400 Gal tank (with 525+ system gallons)... so it's unlikely I would see a radical change in chemistry
• I don't use additives (just a calcium reactor) on a Ecosystem Aquarium filtration system.
• I've been remarkably regular about doing water changes (10% per week or so)
• Testing appears to be normal or better using Salifert kits (no phospates, nitrites, nitrates, ammonia to be seen, no apparent metals - though I can't test for all, pH 8.2 and dHk 10. I will have the water tested at the LFS - to make sure my test kits are fine
• Certainly it could be a slow build up of something - that suddenly reached a critical mass - but then why wouldn't all 4 clams crash - or other things? I'd also consider delicate (cleaner shrimp, tube worms, pods) not be at least stressed - are there things in particular that clams are not tolerant of that corals or inverts can are fine with?
• NOTHING else in the tank appears stressed or is acting any differently than normal
• My SPS's have never looked better
• The tank is under 400W MH bulbs
• One clam is affected - I'd think if the angel was nipping, he'd be nipping all, not selectively. To different color clams have different flavors? :lol: sorry - I couldn't resist.
  
  

 

[DonW]

[*]One clam is affected - I'd think if the angel was nipping, he'd be nipping all, not selectively. To different color clams have different flavors? :lol: sorry - I couldn't resist.


[/LIST]

May be more realistic than you think. If the clam is weak and dieing they are funky. A fish would see this as dinner.

Don

 

[jesseb]

If you loose more than one clam it very well could be a water issue. I'm not saying this is what happened but an example of what could happen. Keep in mind sick clams are polluters wether they are already dead or not as they are dieing they are gross. If you have an fish that is bothering a clam only late at night your not going to see it. If that clam starts to die he will cause water quality issues that will directly effect the other clams causing a domino effect.
One reasons we see so many clam deaths is because so many people are now keeping clams.
I personally dont think this is some huge mystery outbreak. Clams in the past were kept by people in very controlled tanks with no crabs, angels or other things that may bother them. Reef keepers have become more relaxed and are pushing the envelope believing that if they dont see it its not happening. We have so many people claiming to keep clams with angel and their clams are doing fine. What they are not telling you is that they have only had the clam for 6 months, a few months later we see another one of these threads. Although there are many many more people keeping clams than there were just 3 years ago, clams are still very delicate. There is something in the tank or the reefkeepers that are causing these domino effect deaths. You just have to dig deeper, even if it means not keeping clams, removing your beloved angels or even testing the tank water 5 times a day for a month.

Don

I don't fundamentally disagree with you. That said, I can't see water quality issues that changed so quickly to cause 3 of 4 clams to have an issue (I can't see any reason why it would be 3 of 4 quite honestly - though could surmise a few). I've made no real changes in the system (other than adding some fish) since a year ago and have been surprised at my own diligence on maintenance. I'm struggling to see how it's a chemistry problem:

• It's a well established, 400 Gal tank (with 525+ system gallons)... so it's unlikely I would see a radical change in chemistry
• I don't use additives (just a calcium reactor) on a Ecosystem Aquarium filtration system.
• I've been remarkably regular about doing water changes (10% per week or so)
• Testing appears to be normal or better using Salifert kits (no phospates, nitrites, nitrates, ammonia to be seen, no apparent metals - though I can't test for all, pH 8.2 and dHk 10). I will have the water tested at the LFS - to make sure my test kits are fine
• Certainly it could be a slow build up of something - that suddenly reached a critical mass - but then why wouldn't all 4 clams crash - or other things I'd also consider delicate (cleaner shrimp, tube worms, pods) not be at least stressed - are there things in particular that clams are not tolerant of that corals or inverts can are fine with?
• NOTHING else in the tank appears stressed or is acting any differently than normal
• My SPS's have never looked better
• The tank is under 400W MH bulbs
• One clam is not affected - I'd think if the angel was nipping, he'd be nipping all, not selectively. Do different color clams have different flavors? :lol: sorry - I couldn't resist.

I'm digging as deep as I can - with the intention of fixing/addressing things that might be awry, but that also means looking "outside the [glass] box".