dragoneggs
Well-known member
I would go with 12g wire and 20amp circuits.
In Wall - going for it! - seeking your ideas/feedback/advice
- Thread starter class clown
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I would go with 12g wire and 20amp circuits.
class clown
Well-known member
sorry to get off the electrical thing b/c that is important, but Ive had flow on the mind...
After listening to Jake Adams speak this weekend and then finishing reading his 5 part flow series, I'm convinced there has got to be a better way to do my flow. Problem is that I'm running out of time - tank construction starts at like the end of this week. I need to figure this out quick.
Heres some reading for anyone who is interested:
Part I: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2
Part II: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/aafeature
Part III: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature2
Part IV: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11/aafeature
Part V: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature (if you're going to pick one to read, part V is the best)
In my current design, I have a constant barreling effect in one directoin - great inertia, and great mass water movement, but it's only unidrectional. that means only half of the coral is getting nutrients & being able to respirate and photosynthesize properly. What I need is for all sides of the coral to get nutrients, respirate and all of that other important stuff..
What I need is a barreling effect in the opposite direction every few minutes or so too. ahhh!
Does anyone know how fast the drums on the oceans motions change? ideally I'd want the current flowing in one directoin for a few minutes (enough time to get inertia and a good current going), and then mix it back up and get it spinning the other direction. I know this is probably easier to do with a motorized ball valve.
for a cube tank, Jake recomended a spinning motion from left to right and then after a few minutes, get it going right to left... instead of the barreling idea I have now which is bottom to top.
I just want to get this right.. Why are there so many opinions on this and nobody has figured the optimum flow design for a cube tank?
I wrote to Paul at oceans mtions to see if he has any other ideas - we'll see what he says.
After listening to Jake Adams speak this weekend and then finishing reading his 5 part flow series, I'm convinced there has got to be a better way to do my flow. Problem is that I'm running out of time - tank construction starts at like the end of this week. I need to figure this out quick.
Heres some reading for anyone who is interested:
Part I: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/aafeature2
Part II: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/aafeature
Part III: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature2
Part IV: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11/aafeature
Part V: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature (if you're going to pick one to read, part V is the best)
In my current design, I have a constant barreling effect in one directoin - great inertia, and great mass water movement, but it's only unidrectional. that means only half of the coral is getting nutrients & being able to respirate and photosynthesize properly. What I need is for all sides of the coral to get nutrients, respirate and all of that other important stuff..
What I need is a barreling effect in the opposite direction every few minutes or so too. ahhh!
Does anyone know how fast the drums on the oceans motions change? ideally I'd want the current flowing in one directoin for a few minutes (enough time to get inertia and a good current going), and then mix it back up and get it spinning the other direction. I know this is probably easier to do with a motorized ball valve.
for a cube tank, Jake recomended a spinning motion from left to right and then after a few minutes, get it going right to left... instead of the barreling idea I have now which is bottom to top.
I just want to get this right.. Why are there so many opinions on this and nobody has figured the optimum flow design for a cube tank?
I wrote to Paul at oceans mtions to see if he has any other ideas - we'll see what he says.
Jan
Well-known member
I didn't take away from the talk that it's necessary to switch directions in order for corals to feed/respirate completely. I remember him saying that the water flows all the way around the coral stalk and creates turbulence on the back side (opposite side from direction of flow). In my mind, that means that all sides of the coral are getting respirated. The two-directional thing is maybe the ideal, but I don't believe that it's really so bad for corals if they good flow from one direction. Just my newbie opinion as you know...
class clown
Well-known member
It is my understanding that a coral can survive just fine with a unidirectional flow. I believe I have read that they will take on odd growth patterns due to this. It is my understanding also that a coral will grow thicker branchier and thrive with a unidirectional flow. The difference IMO is the term survive and thrive.
An OM turns one revolution per minute.
An OM turns one revolution per minute.
Scooterman
Well-known member
class clown
Well-known member
MBV ehh scooty? yeah, I remember you recomending one of those way back atthe beginning of the thread. well the good news is that I haven't used the OM yet,so technically I could return it if I can't figure out how to get good flow to both/all sides of the coral.
Jan
Well-known member
Duane, you used both terms "survive" and "thrive" in relation to unidirectional flow...was that intentional, or did you mean that corals will thrive with bi-directional current?
class clown
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure he meant bi-directional will thrive. Unidirectional will survive. If I'm putting this much $, time, and effort into developing this tank. I'm not sure I can settle for "survive"
I've got a call into Paul at OM to see if he can make any suggestions. I thought of adding a short cycle timer to the OM motor to make the interval longer.
I would set the "on cycle" to 30 seconds - enough time for the OM drum to switch outlets and then set the "off interval" for about 10 minutes. 10 minutes is about the duration I remember jake mention as a minimum for the continuous flow pattern to establish. I may even try a longer cycle like 30 minutes.
This 10 - 30 minutes would allow the flow to travel from one side of the tank to the other and produce a return flow off the glass back to the other side. You then allow the long flow pattern to run for a time and then the cycle timer turn the OM motor back on for 30 seconds to switch things around.
I don't know what this would do to the unit over time though..
and then again, this could all be accomplished w/ an MBV much more easily.
Sorry, they will be more likely to thrive in a bi-directional current due to lack of dead spots promoting better aspiration.
One thing I have learned from working on the ocean for over four years(ever watch deadliest catch? I used to know some of those guys) and living a mile from the "BAY" for another four. Waves do not typically ebb and flow every three to five minutes. They tend to come every 15-60 seconds with the occasional rogue wave being much larger and stronger. IMO it is not necessarily best to change the flow of a wave maker in long time periods.
Some set up a tank with a unidirectional flow with surges. I do not believe this is a good way of setting up a tank. In some cases on a reef, or bay with corals the flow patterns will mimic this, but as the tide turns, it does this in the opposite direction. Hence the corals get flow from both sides regardless of where they are in the world. The corals may be subject to a uni-directional flow but it is only temporary. It changes about every six hours with a slack tide in between. I dont beleive this can be replicated in a tank without sophisticated equipment. This, of course, is JMHO.
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Jan
Well-known member
Sorry to make you repeat yourself but what is an MBV? Of course, I am thinking about what to do with my tank (oh yeah, this is your thread.... 
)
)
Scooterman
Well-known member
Well that is where the PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) on the MBV (Motorized Ball Valve) comes into play, I can program it to actuate at whatever rate i think is needed, even cause occasional chaotic pauses in between the cycle & let all sides flow if I want. Right now I have it simple 5 minutes rotation during the day & 10 at night but I'm not limited in that aspect.
class clown
Well-known member
Scooty - can you give us an idea of cost for these two items PLC + MBV and maybe provide a link to where they could be obtained.
I talked with Paul at OM for about an hour again this morning. He explains it really is best to have current flowing at the coral at different angles at different times, but he has had several that have sustained great results w/ this backwards barreling which was the original plan. It's kinda getting back to exacly what Duane said - "thrive" vs. "survive"
My goal of course is to make it thrive.
Quite the conundrum...
The option i'm considering is this.
using existing oceans motions 4 way to spin water one way, then stop in that position for a few minutes by cutting the power. Then a few minutes later, turn the power back on and hope to rotate the drum enough so that I can get flow spinning the other way, and cut the power again for a few more minutes. Just have this going over and over again.
The only thing is I think my neptune ACIII is only programable up to the minute (60 seconds), which means it'll get me all that way back to the same position (I think). I'd want to get it back the alternate position (30 seconds) ideally.
I'm going to go home, plug in the OM unit and see if I can time how fast it really takes to make a full transition.
Note: Paul says there is no concerns whatsoever with turning on and off electricity to the OM unit - it's not going to hurt it. What I need to figure out is how to get it to stop (kill the power) at the 15 or 30 second mark.
How expensive is a PLC?
Any other ideas out there for how I get this thing to turn on every 15 or 30 seconds, then stop for a few minutes, then back on for 15 or 30 seconds, then back on?
Scooterman
Well-known member
I think in this case you could send DonW a Pm. The PLC can do any control you need, including timers like your wanting but I bet Don can come up with an easier solution. In my line of work I have access to some freebies others gave me, including the PLC & I had a programmer come by & program it for me at the cost of a beer I saw the unit on E-bay for around $200 but you still need the software to program it, connections etc.
I saw the unit on E-bay for around $200 but you still need the software to program it, connections etc.
DonW
R.I.P.
I have two timer options that will work depending on the voltage that your trying to control. Not the cheapest but they are nice $35 and $50 12v or 110v. I program them to what ever interval you want, once programmed they stay that way forever unless reprogrammed.
Don
Don
class clown
Well-known member
Wow - excellente! Thanks Don! this could be the solution I'm looking for. What I'll try to do tonight is pin down exactly how long it takes for one revolution... then give you that info.. Ohh.. and I'll try to find the specks on 12v or 110v.
How easy is it to reprogram if I want to alter the time to increase/decrease cycle times? Is it somethign I can do? or.. would I have to bug you each time I want to tweak it?
again- thanks Don! I think this could be our best solution right here!
DonW
R.I.P.
I think I may be able to get the 110v model switch between a number of intervals with a momentary switch. This way I could program in 20 or so different intervals, each time the button is pressed it should jump to the next. I'll give it a shot tonight and get back to you.
Don
class clown
Well-known member
I think the design I'll go with is this... (your looking here from the top down).
the green woudl go on at one time. Then, when they shut off, the blue would come on and shut off, then back over to the blue... this process would repeat itself over and over again. I would either use my oceans motions and the timer that Don can build me to make it work like this... or... If a MBV and timer, I'd go this route.
I realize there is a risk of putting bulkheads at the bottom of the tank. I also realize it is more expensive to put the bulkheads at the bottom of the tank bc there are more parts. However, I think I might see benefit in water quality doing it this way b/c it should help detritus raise to the top of the water column.. agree?
So, let me know your thoughts.... and/or other ideas.
P.S - I may have found a MBV and actuator for $50. it's used, but hey, it's $50. what types of questions should I ask the guy to find out if it's good or not?
- Red is the return at the top of the surface pointing towards the back of the overflow.
- Blue = 3/4 bulkheads mounted on bottom of tank pointed in one directoin
- green = 3/4 bulkheads mounted on bottom of tank pointed in the opposite direction
the green woudl go on at one time. Then, when they shut off, the blue would come on and shut off, then back over to the blue... this process would repeat itself over and over again. I would either use my oceans motions and the timer that Don can build me to make it work like this... or... If a MBV and timer, I'd go this route.
I realize there is a risk of putting bulkheads at the bottom of the tank. I also realize it is more expensive to put the bulkheads at the bottom of the tank bc there are more parts. However, I think I might see benefit in water quality doing it this way b/c it should help detritus raise to the top of the water column.. agree?
So, let me know your thoughts.... and/or other ideas.
P.S - I may have found a MBV and actuator for $50. it's used, but hey, it's $50. what types of questions should I ask the guy to find out if it's good or not?
Scooterman
Well-known member
I think to do what your saying, (If I understand correctly) either would work for you, the OM would be maybe a little more plumbing but less involved & doesn't sound like a can opener every so often, also the duty cycle is not going to get you every 15 seconds, I think it is a 25% duty cycle on the MBV but I'd have to go check that. So your best option IMO is the OM. I would purchase the MBV with the timer & send It to me so I can sell it on e-bay
class clown
Well-known member
I think to do what your saying, (If I understand correctly) either would work for you, the OM would be maybe a little more plumbing but less involved & doesn't sound like a can opener every so often, also the duty cycle is not going to get you every 15 seconds, I think it is a 25% duty cycle on the MBV but I'd have to go check that. So your best option IMO is the OM. I would purchase the MBV with the timer & send It to me so I can sell it on e-bay
Well.. I told the guy I'd like to come take a look at the MBV on Thursday. So may have to do that. Heck.. it'd be a loooot cheaper if I went that route. Do I have to worry about the wearing out though?
at what's this duty cycle thing all about. Does that mean a time when it's in between rotations... if yes, I know the OM has that too. Then they both have the same duty cycle problems don't they? maybe you could help me understand the difference.
