In Wall - going for it! - seeking your ideas/feedback/advice

[class clown]

FYI - just confirmed by testing that the OM rotates at one full rotation every 60 seconds - to a T. This means I'd want it on for 15 seconds, then stop for a minute or two. Then have it on for 15 seconds, then stop. etc, etc.

there is a point where all 4 valves are partially open.

pretty cool. i couldnt' beleive how quite the thing is. maybe it is noiser when there is water running through it, but i literally couldn't even tell it was on during my dry run tonight.

 

[class clown]

Does anyone have anything to add to the pro/con list about mounting the water outlets on the bottom of the tank?

Pros:

• detritus pushed upwards in the water column which hopefully pulls it over the overflow.
• more stirring at bottom of the tank/less dead spots
• out of the way so i can reach my hand in the tank
• looks more stealth

Cons:

• have to worry about now 8 bulkheads failing
• cost is more

did i miss any in either bucket? if no, I'll probably continue to go as planned mounting two sets of outlets in each of the 4 corners of the bottom of the tank.

 

[class clown]

I did a little math and the price of going with the outlets on the bottom is about $140 more than having the outlets on the top of the tank. Most of this is in the bulkhead cost- as most of you know, these can be pricey.

What do ya think...Worth it?

 

[dragoneggs]

Ben,

This is basically the arrangement I have in my tank. Two CL returns in each corner. After listening to Jake's presentation I am thinking of replumbing my CLs to do essentially what you are doing. I don't think however it is necessary to cycle as often as that. I was thinking more like once every 6 hours to closer simulate tide movement. I can't believe the speed of coral growth would be effected by the frequency of direction change unless it was in the order of days... not minutes or hours.

My concern with rapid reversing is the inertia of the water will have to be overcome each time and this will take some time to reverse. This seems like wasted 'flow' time.

My problem is that my 4 CL pumps each control a side so I would have to replumb to get each corner to be able push water in either direction.

I love your arrangement.

Personally, I would also want to add some tunze or some other means to get the flow rotating around the top. I can tell you that I have more flow in the bottom half of my tank than the top half. I think you might experience the same thing... but... maybe not as you will have all flow in same direction rather than each side aiming at one another as mine is.

 

[class clown]

Awesome Mark - this is just what I was hoping for!!! I think I can be happy with this design.

so two things I picked out of your comments that I'd like to comment back on...

1) a concern for the speed of flow reversal: With that timer that Don can build my understanding is that I can have up to 20 settings pre programed. So I could have it move 15 seconds every 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 min, 1 hr, 2 hr, 3 hr... etc.. Pretty much I could adjust it to whatever I want which is pretty darn cool if you ask me. I'd have to test it out to see what works best, but hopefully that alleviates the concern.

2) a concern for the lack of water movement at the top of the water column: I was a little worried about that too. My tank is 24" tall and I'll also have that return line blowing across the top of the water column from front to back constantly. One alternative that I was considering was that I could mount the outlets that are stationed at the front of the tank up towards the top of the tank vs. the bottom, but didn't know if this would defeat my whole "detritus removal" concept - plus, I already figure I have the return up there anyway pushing water so this should be enough, right?.

 

[class clown]

I did write Jake Adams directly tonight to request his input too on this new design. We'll see if he chimes in here. I know he's a busy guy, but i'd appreciate his input since he seems to be closer to understanding the flow needs of corals better than anyone else I've ever talked with based on the research & studies he's done.

 

[dragoneggs]

1) I definitely like the adjustability of Don's timer. I think this will allow you to dial in a flow that assures you are not just wasting a bunch of energy reversing the flow too often.

2) I am assuming that unidirectional flow on the bottom will still do a good job lifting detritus but I definitely would keep your CL flow on the bottom for all four sides or I think you will have some low flow area near the bottom and a good place for detritus build up.

I would plan for a possible system expansion for additional flow at the top if needed to 'stir' the top half. Remember Jake's chart... More light means you need more flow. Since your high flow SPS will be near the top this is obviously important. What I don't know is how well the water will be 'spinning' at the top if all outlets are on the bottom. I know my little powerhead located at the bottom of my Brute 32gal bin does a nice job moving the water on the top so I would hope your arrangement with much more power albeit in a cube rather than a cylinder should do quite the same. I am sure the cube will create a fair amount of random turbulance in the corners but I would think the reef surfaces should be getting great flow.

I can't wait to see yours so I can then decide if I need to replumb. The plumbing routing will not be as clean as my present set up. I started with some rough plumbing sketches today and haven't come up with something I like yet that would flow like yours even though my CL returns are in the exact spots as your plan. Routing is very important, especially if you have limited space/access.

I would lay out your 3D plumbing diagram before commiting to exact bulkhead distances. Jason is pretty good about separation requirements to be sure you can comfortable plumb your monster.

 

[Scooterman]

OK, not having BH's on the bottom & still getting Detritus up & over so it can drain into the sump. MY thoughts only so don't bite me

I don't see any more danger in having a BH on the bottom as compared to 4" off the back bottom, you get a leak basically your going to loose almost all of your water. I did use sch. 80 BH's on all the fittings because they are so beefy & just seem to hold up better, I once split the lock-nut on a regular bh, so that sorta made me shy of using them, bit the bullet & got the bigger & thicker BH's just to feel a slight bit better about that.

With the header system I have on my tank & the MBV (which the OM could do the same with slight more plumbing) I reverse flow every 5 minutes during the day & 10 minutes at night. I loose no momentum as Mark mentioned, granted my tank is only 4ft long but MoJO uses the same process just more pump & has no issues with that. I have two spots the collect LR shed but detritus ends up over the coast to coast trough, this trough is very key to skimming the water & getting detritus out of the main display, you can't do that with two corner overflows, they will not collect nearly as much. I don't see an advantage of having bottom BH's in the rear of your tank as in your drawing, you could move the back outlets to the back wall & get the same directional flow using loc-lines. This would allow for more bottom area for LR etc, no chances of hitting the bottom BH's causing possible damage etc! I would have two outlets on each side that would get water together to make the wave motion from that direction, blowing everything to the other side like one wave, then when the OM switches, they go off & the outlets from the opposite side would blow across in the opposite direction, each outlet with "Y's, so that would equal to 4 outlets on each back side blowing across the tank & two up front swirling the water back, that would be more than plenty of flow, also adding to that whatever returns you have from the sump can be up high. Also all of your flow won't be coming from the bottom up but rather midways across, sorta side stepping. Last thoughts, on the outlets split each CL outlets with loc-line "Y's" & split up the flow even more with wide flare nozzles. With this said I have smooth operation & I can determine the switching time as desired, I get flow everywhere & at the same time no focused streams of water squirting out rather a wide smooth flow, I thought that maybe I would need a Tunze stream or two opposing but no doubt I plainly don't need any, nothing, notta. The only way for you to really appreciate it is seeing it.

oh just had one more thing, even the outlets up front isn't necessary IMO! Why? Well, across 25" I get water from that wide spread & 8 outlets on EACH side (4BH's & then "Y,s" makes the 8), some of that water hits the front & bounces back, just like you would expect, this then bounces toward the other side because of the angles, even through LR I get flow coming from the front.
Just some thoughts to consider

 

[class clown]

Two very thoughtful responses - thank you. It sounded like you were both concerned about flow towards the surface. Scooty's idea of 2 bulkheads on either side of the back might curb the problem (one 4" from top, and one 4" from bottom) may be our best bet, but man that woudl be a lot of plumbing
I guess I don't have to use schedule 80's on the back wall though.


Scooty - did I capture this correctly?

blue's all on at one time, greens all on at another... the red return pump is constantly on straight down the middle from front to back at the surface.

 

[Scooterman]

I can't really argue your drawing, it looks like what your trying to achieve is making the water flow in one massive swirl & that would do it. I wouldn't put the back BH's that close to each other, space them about 8" & remember you can put "Y's" on each outlet if you need. On the comment about being in the way back there, really you don't need the Loc-line to stick out, I only put one piece enough to be able to move the nozzle in any direction, they are all real short & close to the back.
Now enough said If this is your goal but not quite what I had in mind, I don't swirl water in a circular motion, the way I have mine set up is liner, moves water from one direction to the other side & then reverse, different concepts & I can't say one would work better than the other, that I haven't seen. I was trying to get basic liner motion of a wave & add a little chaotic bounce from the front.

 

[DonW]

I checked the timer and we should be able to make it work with 32 different intervals. Although this would work great I'd probably concider everything else that needs good timing control and safety features. I know know your using the aquacontroller but if you want alot of different pieces of automation that are all easily tied together the AC is not going to give very good results. You dont want to throw $50 here and $50 there just to find you could have done so much more with a real controller for less money. IMO I'd take a much closer look at the Ocelot and secu16's. In combonation with you AC you'd have one heck of a great control system. But if decide to just go the timer route let me know.

Don

 

[class clown]

Don - thx - 32 ehh? wow.

so I googled Ocelot and secu16s and guess who's name is at the top of the list... ha ha.. yep.. your's... you must be like a pioneer w/ these things.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10758
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18641&page=3

The only thing is that I really can't really think of a whole lot more I'd like to do..

Fully Auto water change - yeah, that would be cool. what other ideas were you thinking of?

 

[DonW]

Don - thx - 32 ehh? wow.

so I googled Ocelot and secu16s and guess who's name is at the top of the list... ha ha.. yep.. your's... you must be like a pioneer w/ these things.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10758
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18641&page=3

The only thing is that I really can't really think of a whole lot more I'd like to do..

Fully Auto water change - yeah, that would be cool. what other ideas were you thinking of?

I do lot of stuff some find cool some find just plain nuts. I can do just about any funky thing you can think of. It would take me days to list them all.

The lighting is controlled by the ocelot. It raises up and down incrementaly for a dusk dawn effect. If temp were to rise the lighting can lift or just shut down based on how high the temp got. The fans are used only at lower elevation levels. The bulb usage is tracked so that I'm made aware that a bulb change is due.
The ato is conditional also. Wont top off if the flood sensors are active. Has pass to drain solenoids. Will not allow a short cycle. Will pass to skimmer venturi once daily to keep venturi clean but will shut the skimmer down first so it doesnt over flow. Skimmer shuts down when cup is full. Selective top off of kalk or rodi. Peri pump for kalk is pulsed at different rates to allow slow overnight drip or fast top off. Peri pump for the calcium reactor is also pulsed at different rates so that the feed rate stays constant. I have a feed rate tiny cup with a trigger. The cup pivots and empties when full this triggers the ocelot to determine the flow flow rate and speed or slow the peri pump. Chiller and heaters are tracked. If the temp is found to be the highest at say 3pm on the average ticker the lights will raise 6" and fans are turned on for that time period. This cuts back chiller usage to a minimum. If the chiller is cycling and ambient temp is high the lighting is automaticly put on a reverse photo period. This happens over a 5 day time frame so as not to shock the tank or me. Water level in the filter sock is monitored so if it rises the sock is getting plugged and needs to swapped. All pumps have a 1psi switch installed in line. If the pressure drops to 0 the pump has died and I'm alerted and power is removed from that pump. The pump is allowed to cool for 10 minutes and power is then restored. If the pump remains in the failure state a critical alert is activated and the power is then removed unti I reset the failure manualy. If it were the chiller pump the lights would lift 15". If it were the return pump the skimmer and ca reactor is shut down along with any ato functions. If a flood sensor goes active, flow systems are shut down along with the lights. The light actuator has a monster air stone just hanging. If the flow system get shut down for any reason the lights drop to 1" off the waters surface after cooling for 30 min. The stone is then submerged and the air pump is activated.......................................................... Alot of very simple code makes all this work. Sound complicated but like Ive said before if you can think and reason it very easy. Just need a imagination.

Don

 

[class clown]

OMG Don -you are too funny - that last one was the kicker - air stone - automatically dropping. I wish you could see the smile on my face right now.


Let's just say it's 10 times as big as this one

 

[jezzeaepi]

One word about the timer for the OM.

I wanted to put mine on a timer too, so I asked Paul about doing just that. He said that if you do make a timer, you also need to make some sort of sensor that insures that the drum inside is facing the proper direction and completely open. Otherwise, when the drum stops moving, it may be at a point where only 30% of the flow is going to that outlet, and 70% is going to another. This would be a bad place to have it stop, because at 30% and 70% through two nozzles, you may only be getting a foot or so of flow.

Peace

 

[class clown]

One word about the timer for the OM.

I wanted to put mine on a timer too, so I asked Paul about doing just that. He said that if you do make a timer, you also need to make some sort of sensor that insures that the drum inside is facing the proper direction and completely open. Otherwise, when the drum stops moving, it may be at a point where only 30% of the flow is going to that outlet, and 70% is going to another. This would be a bad place to have it stop, because at 30% and 70% through two nozzles, you may only be getting a foot or so of flow.

Peace

yeah.. I can see that.. he talked to me about the sensor too, and I understood conceptually what he was after, but that's super techy and we're talking like a mod to the drum of the OM here..I don't know how to build that, ya know...

that leads me back to why a MBV may make the most sense...

 

[DonW]

yeah.. I can see that.. he talked to me about the sensor too, and I understood conceptually what he was after, but that's super techy and we're talking like a mod to the drum of the OM here..I don't know how to build that, ya know...

that leads me back to why a MBV may make the most sense...

That would be a easy one with the real controller What you would do is use epoxy to stick a rare earth magnet on the inside of the drum any place it would fit. Use a tiny reed switch from radio shack stuck to the outside of the OM. Each time the magnet passed it would close the switch tell in the controller to do what ever it was that you wanted it to do. Just like a float switch for an ato. Now add more functionality and use the same $2 set up to signal an alarm in event of a failure. Use it to get contol over the realtime rotation of the OM. Add a second switch and you can tell within 180 degrees where the drum is positioned. Offset a scond switch say to 160 degrees and the controller can tell what direction the thing is turning. Add some time monitoring code and you can tell if its starting to get slow and needs to be cleaned. Ok I'll stop but I'm sure I can come up with a few more.

Don

 

[class clown]

essentially - although I measured the OM and it was exactly a 60 seconds full rotation to a T, over the course of time - days, months, years, eventually this thing probably will get out of synch, right? It's just a matter of when.

so.. it's almost like I will need a flow sensor to measure when I'm getting full flow, and then stop. And if it get's out of synch, it has to be able to automatically right itself back to full flow by adding or subtracting a second here or there on the rotation.

hmmm...

back once again to the motorized ball valve.

 

[class clown]

That would be a easy one with the real controller What you would do is use epoxy to stick a rare earth magnet on the inside of the drum any place it would fit. Use a tiny reed switch from radio shack stuck to the outside of the OM. Each time the magnet passed it would close the switch tell in the controller to do what ever it was that you wanted it to do. Just like a float switch for an ato. Now add more functionality and use the same $2 set up to signal an alarm in event of a failure. Use it to get contol over the realtime rotation of the OM. Add a second switch and you can tell within 180 degrees where the drum is positioned. Offset a scond switch say to 160 degrees and the controller can tell what direction the thing is turning. Add some time monitoring code and you can tell if its starting to get slow and needs to be cleaned. Ok I'll stop but I'm sure I can come up with a few more.

Don

Don - you beat me by a minute or so with your post, but your magnet approach may work. I think the drum already has magnets in it though - would those interfere at all w/ the signal.

BUT..... this is all now sounding really complex if I can do the same thing w/ a MBV with less equipment..

new controller - $200
drill into OM & possibly void warranty
couple $2 parts here and there
lots of tinkering to get it just right

do you think this is my best bet? or would you go MBV?

 

[DonW]

Don - you beat me by a minute or so with your post, but your magnet approach may work. I think the drum already has magnets in it though - would those interfere at all w/ the signal.

BUT..... this is all now sounding really complex if I can do the same thing w/ a MBV with less equipment..

new controller - $200
drill into OM & possibly void warranty
couple $2 parts here and there
lots of tinkering to get it just right

do you think this is my best bet? or would you go MBV?

Personally I would go the OM but that just me I like to tinker. You should not have to drill the OM any way for the magnet to work. If its a magneticly driven drum you just reverse the polarity on the added magnet.
As far as the controller goes if your going to want more toys in the future you'll save money. If you want just the bare basics then the timer is a better option. Heck you may even be able to use the existing magnet. Where are they located? Could even use the magnets to activate a timer.

Don