In Wall - going for it! - seeking your ideas/feedback/advice

[class clown]

Personally I would go the OM but that just me I like to tinker. You should not have to drill the OM any way for the magnet to work. If its a magneticly driven drum you just reverse the polarity on the added magnet.
As far as the controller goes if your going to want more toys in the future you'll save money. If you want just the bare basics then the timer is a better option. Heck you may even be able to use the existing magnet. Where are they located? Could even use the magnets to activate a timer.

Don

well the magnets are actually what drive the thing as I understand it. He's developed it that way so that if a piece of sand or something gets stuck in it, it won't jamb the whole system & brake. I think he said yesterday there are 8 magnets in the drum and 8 in the motor???? don't quote me though.

since my last post, I plugged in the OM and have had it going dry for about 10 minutes now to see if I could maintain the precise 60 seconds per rotation (i confirmed there are no issues w/ running it dry w/ Paul before trying it - he said several people actually use this thing to channel air). Anyhow, back to the point...Thus far, I'm about 5 seconds off the rotation. So it's not an exact 60 seconds per rotation, but I couldn't tell that yesterday when i tried it only for a short stint.

If we just put it on a timer, we're going to have to worry about the scenario Jesse discribed. If we step into the realm of magnet sensors and possibly flow sensors, then we're talking big bucks.

hmmm..

 

[DonW]

well the magnets are actually what drive the thing as I understand it. He's developed it that way so that if a piece of sand or something gets stuck in it, it won't jamb the whole system & brake. I think he said yesterday there are 8 magnets in the drum and 8 in the motor???? don't quote me though.

since my last post, I plugged in the OM and have had it going dry for about 10 minutes now to see if I could maintain the precise 60 seconds per rotation (i confirmed there are no issues w/ running it dry w/ Paul before trying it - he said several people actually use this thing to channel air). Anyhow, back to the point...Thus far, I'm about 5 seconds off the rotation. So it's not an exact 60 seconds per rotation, but I couldn't tell that yesterday when i tried it only for a short stint.

Knowing where those magnets are would be great even if you not going to try this Id love to know it they are on the sides. Could you take another magnet and see if you can find them?

Don

 

[Scooterman]

Ben I agree, having the controller like Don is saying will pay off in the long run, yea it takes time to tweak things out but reliability is worth it. If you get lots of parts & pieces to make it all work, do like I did & get a little control panel to mount everything in, this will keep all the components together, protected from water etc, & you can add to it as needed & all still look neat when the door is closed. I have a 6x8 steel enclosure I got free but probably will eventually try & get a fiberglass enclosure about twice the size to put all of the automation in it together. Heck you'll learn some new stuff, how scary can that be

 

[class clown]

Ok ok.. Here's the question I need answered though.

I'm thinking all of this can be accomplished w/ a MBV for a much lessor price. Can someone help me outline the pro's and con's of each? I'd appreciate it.

 

[class clown]

Nobody can help me with the pro's and con's of each ehh?

well, here's some info Don requested... to know what the guts of the OM look like. I was pretty impressed with the craftsmanship.

2 hex nuts hold the motor to the main body (click image for a larger view)


unscrew the 2 hex nuts, give it a good tug b/c the magnets are also holding it together an viola...

what you see is the shaft that has a plate attached on top. that plate houses 8 pretty darn powerful circular magnets (click image for larger view).



Then, unscrew 4 more bolts on the body, take off the lid, and you are down to the drum. I'm holding the drum in my hands in both of these pictures. Although i can't see the magnets in the drum, i know they are embedded in this little hump in the middle of the drum because as I put the drum towards the other magnets, there was a strong attraction.

(click images for larger view)






so.. what do you think?

 

[DonW]

Thats a bummer the housing is very thick but looks doable, not to bad. That housing looks about 1/2" thick. See the 4 bolt holes. You drill them down another 1.5" the further down the better with a smaller bit. This will make a cavity for the reed switch. Now assuming those are 5/16 bolts either buy some hollow ones from a motorcycle shop or bore the center out of those. This will be for the two wires to go through. Now epoxy on a rare earth magnet on the inside of the drum. I'd use two so that the drum doesnt get thrown out of balance. Then just reassemble. If all goes according to plan the magnet should trip the switches and you have not penetrated the body of the unit so no need to worry about a leak. If it doesnt work but I'm 99.5% sure it will, all you need to do is take out the switches and replace the bolts and youll never be able to tell it was modded.
This switch should work fine.
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/st...toreId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=171871

Don

 

[trido]

Heck you may even be able to use the existing magnet. Where are they located? Could even use the magnets to activate a timer

The OM works with two magnets. One is in (or attached to) the small motoron the top and the other is cast into the drum itself The motor spins the external magnet dragging the internal magnet (drum) along with it.

Milzed.

You are truely a mad scientist of low voltage gizmos Don. I would love to your tank some day.

 

[class clown]

So Don,

I think I understand and I'm going to draw here to confirm with you that I understand.

unscrew the top 2 bolts & take off motor. unscrew the remaining 4 bolts and remove all pieces until you get to just the housing. Drill in 2 opposing screw holes with a tiny drill bit as far down as I can (1.5" or better"). put the switch in the hole and feed the wires back out through a hollow screw.

green indicates where I drill into the existing screw hold
orange is the switch body implanted into the housing
red wire is the postive
black is the negative

then I'd have the rare earth magnets epoxied into the inside of either side of the drum 180 degrees across from each other, like so..

Then I'd put it back together, but what do I do with the wires from the switch?

they'd make my flush fit where the motor screws on the drum not so flush.. just deal with it? what guage wire is it?

 

[class clown]

and check it out.. i found some arc segment rare earth magnets that might fit right in the drum...

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/SearchResult-CategoryID-21-KeyWords-Segment-All-True.html

I'd get the 45degree angle one's and hope they fit right in there.

These won't screw up my other magnets will they? and I wonder what polarity I get?

 

[Scooterman]

Is this going under patent or what?

I wonder if you can get some small round magnets like the size of a watch battery but maybe thicker, also you can get them super strong magnets to make sure they will werk through the thickness of the housing.

Comparing the OM & the MBV!

MBV has several sets of contacts that can be used for easier control.
MBV is just that, a ball valve that is actuated using a motor, 25% duty cycle, low power only when cycled. Plumbed easily like a three way ball valve, with limitless header options for output flow.

MBV cost around $356 plus you need minimum of some sort of controller or timer to actuate it, you have to hard wire it not plug & play. When it actuates, it sounds a little like a can opener but maybe not as loud.
It has a 25% duty cycle so not like you can have it constantly running back & fort if that is something you would need.

OM plumb, plug in & run, it is designed specifically for aquariums. No controller needed, cost about that same as a MBV alone. Quite. no header needed, just plumb it up in all directions. Just as reliable as the MBV maybe slightly better due to less moving parts & less load on moving parts.

Om can be a pain to plumb.
OM has no control options

Being I don't have experience with the OM maybe more could be added good & bad but IMO it is a winner in several big ways but looses in the options for control another big way. So depending on how much you can tinker with & mod it the OM might be the best way to go.

 

[DonW]

and check it out.. i found some arc segment rare earth magnets that might fit right in the drum...

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/SearchResult-CategoryID-21-KeyWords-Segment-All-True.html

I'd get the 45degree angle one's and hope they fit right in there.

These won't screw up my other magnets will they? and I wonder what polarity I get?

They should have no effect on the other magnets. With those wires I'd use just a very small size. Run them through a flat washer then assemble the top. This will make it all even, if it works as planned then you can notch out the top section so it can go down flat.

Don

 

[class clown]

They should have no effect on the other magnets. With those wires I'd use just a very small size. Run them through a flat washer then assemble the top. This will make it all even, if it works as planned then you can notch out the top section so it can go down flat.

Don

sounds good. And what does the logic look like (code) on the controller end with the omnelots?

switch opens, then wait desired time period, then pump is turned back on...

I may actually be able to do this with my aquacontroller (I'll have an extra IO port available come the time my new system is ready). It would help if I knew your code for the omnelots.

 

[class clown]

Scooty - thanks for input above - much appreciated. Yeah... I agree, some small watch size super powered magnets would be ideal

the closest I've found woudl be these:
http://www.magneticdepot.com/nd02501n35.html

pull force 1.9Lbs


does doubling up the magnets increase the pull force? if yes, I could just keep adding one on top of another until it's strong enough to trip the sensor...

 

[DonW]

sounds good. And what does the logic look like (code) on the controller end with the omnelots?

switch opens, then wait desired time period, then pump is turned back on...

I may actually be able to do this with my aquacontroller (I'll have an extra IO port available come the time my new system is ready). It would help if I knew your code for the omnelots.

I think the AC and ocelot are close to the same type logic, the ocelot is just more elaborate.

It would go something like this:
If Module 1 IO 1 becomes on (reed turns on)
Then Module 1 IO 7 off (secu16 relay #7 off)
Then timer 1 =1 (starts timer #1)
If timer 1 becomes = to 30 (counts to 30)
Then Module 1 IO 7 on (turn relay back on)
Then timer 1 = 0 (sets timer back to 0)

Don

 

[Scooterman]

http://www.gaussboys.com/

check these out

 

[class clown]

http://www.gaussboys.com/

check these out

way more reasonably priced - probably b/c I don't have to buy 100 or more. thanks Scooty!

 

[class clown]

Another Option?????

So... in batting around the idea of MBV vs. Modded OM on the bus ride to work this morning.. I may have thought of another idea that I'd like to run by you..

What if I just had 2 medium sized pumps (ie two Darts) instead of my big ole hammerhead ans skip the OM or MBV all together. The pumps would oscilate on and off. One would control one set of valves that spin the water one way (the blues for example).. then 10-15 minutes later, it'd shut off and the second pump would fire up and push water out of the other set of valves (the greens) that would spin the water the opposite direction. I know for a fact I could make the programming for this happen with my existing Neptune AC III which would save me some bucks.

The only thing I'd be worried about with this design is the relay on the pump wearing out.. these things aren't built to be turned off and on are they? I assume they are meant to be kept on all of the time.

Does anyone know of a good pump say around 2500-3000 gph or so that could handle 10-15 minute intervals on and off?

 

[DonW]

Another Option?????

So... in batting around the idea of MBV vs. Modded OM on the bus ride to work this morning.. I may have thought of another idea that I'd like to run by you..

What if I just had 2 medium sized pumps (ie two Darts) instead of my big ole hammerhead ans skip the OM or MBV all together. The pumps would oscilate on and off. One would control one set of valves that spin the water one way (the blues for example).. then 10-15 minutes later, it'd shut off and the second pump would fire up and push water out of the other set of valves (the greens) that would spin the water the opposite direction. I know for a fact I could make the programming for this happen with my existing Neptune AC III which would save me some bucks.

The only thing I'd be worried about with this design is the relay on the pump wearing out.. these things aren't built to be turned off and on are they? I assume they are meant to be kept on all of the time.

Does anyone know of a good pump say around 2500-3000 gph or so that could handle 10-15 minute intervals on and off?

Not good on the pumps, not something I'd try.

Don

 

[class clown]

Not good on the pumps, not something I'd try.

Don

bummer.. well, I was worried about that too. I wrote the manufacturer to see what the life expectancy would be on the pumps if I went that route. Hopefully they reply soon.

 

[DonW]

bummer.. well, I was worried about that too. I wrote the manufacturer to see what the life expectancy would be on the pumps if I went that route. Hopefully they reply soon.

If they have capacitors they will be toast in no time. I use alot of capictors on my wood lathes because they get turned on an off frequently but not near as much as your talking about.

Don