In Wall - going for it! - seeking your ideas/feedback/advice

[class clown]

Chris wrote me back from Reeflo already - sounds encouraging.

"Ben ,
Our pumps have no problem with on/off operation...you probably don't want to cycle each one more than 8 times per minute. Although I would love to sell you two pumps, why don't you set up your system so that one pump can feed the oscillator and split the lines into two. Kep in mind that as with all electric motors there is a very momentary watt spike at start up..so you will be better off running one pump and let your apparatus do the switching.
Chris"

I wrote him back to make doubly sure it can sustain the test of time w/ the start/stop, start/stop, start/stop.. I also asked him if he could send me some info about the type of electronic components to control it - Don, you may have to help me interpret whatever he sends me.

 

[kendog261]

Ben

Figure it out your self

 

[DonW]

Chris wrote me back from Reeflo already - sounds encouraging.

"Ben ,
Our pumps have no problem with on/off operation...you probably don't want to cycle each one more than 8 times per minute. Although I would love to sell you two pumps, why don't you set up your system so that one pump can feed the oscillator and split the lines into two. Kep in mind that as with all electric motors there is a very momentary watt spike at start up..so you will be better off running one pump and let your apparatus do the switching.
Chris"

I wrote him back to make doubly sure it can sustain the test of time w/ the start/stop, start/stop, start/stop.. I also asked him if he could send me some info about the type of electronic components to control it - Don, you may have to help me interpret whatever he sends me.

The question to ask and get in writing is will they warranty the pumps if you do this. If you send it back burned up is it covered? If you cant get it in writing then I'd question the advise since this goes against the grain of almost ever pump manufacturer except maxijet.

Don

 

[class clown]

Well, here we have it folks.. in writing beleive it or no-- I asked chris if he could send me any literature about the mechanical/electrical components inside that would allow it to sustain the test of time with this 5 min on, 5 min off routine and here's the reply I got

"Ben,
There is nothing that I can show you reagrding the on/off capability other than to say that it will not void our three year warranty..."

 

[class clown]

So.. 3 flow options to choose from:

Option 1) Stick w/ the OM
Reeflo Hammerhead - $329
Oceans Motions 4 way - $339
new controller - $200 +
relay - $89
magnets, wires, reed swich - $10
---------------------------------
total cost for option 1= $967 + tinkering that could void the OM warranty (I'd have a 3 yr warranty on the pump though)

or...

Option 2) Motorize ball valve
Reeflo Hammerhead - $329
MBV - $359
timer - $50
--------------------
total cost for option 2= $738 (3 yr warranty on pump, unk on MBV)

or...

Option 3) 2 Reeflo darts oscilating on/off
2 reeflo darts- $229 each ($459)
cost of using existing Neptune AC III to control pumps -$0
cost of returning OM - $20 shipping
cost of returning Reeflo barracuda - $25 shipping
existing AC controller
----------------------
total cost for option 3 = $503, includes 3 yr full warranty & if one pump does fail ever, I still have current going in one direction as a backup pump.


To me guys, given my situation, I'm really thinking option 3 is the best bet. However, I am definately open to suggestions & other opinions.

 

[mattseattle]

If it were me I'd go with the OM as I know it's reliable. I'm afraid with option 3 you are opening up a can of worms that could be a headache. I would not shut the pump on/off even if the manufacturer says it's ok but that is only my opinion.

I didn't do any of what you described and went with just a pump and an OM on my tank and had amazing flow. I think you are making this way too complicated.

 

[DonW]

Your AC dc8 is probably going to be killed by the pump cycling. I really doubt they are build to handle the continous spike. I agree with matt I'd have to see it for myself to believe that the pump can be cycled. I would not ask the pump manufacturer i'd ask the motor manufacturer.

Don

 

[CarlaW]

I didn't do any of what you described and went with just a pump and an OM on my tank and had amazing flow. I think you are making this way too complicated.

Thank you Matt!!!!!!
Ben, you are trying to outthink yourself, keep it simple and there will be alot less to go wrong, if God forbid it does. JMHO

 

[mattseattle]

Oh SlickDonkey's tank is 240 gallon and he's using the OM 4-way and his flow is awesome. Just get the water rolling and keep it rolling.....

I hope I wasn't out of line for saying what I did but honestly I don't think you really need any of what you described for flow. If you get too complicated you are going to regret it when it comes time to maintenance.

 

[class clown]

hey.. that's what the forums are for right.. I obsess about this stuff and I realize that. now worries at all man - I've got a thick skin and can take a couple slaps.

I can say that If i do this, I want to do it RIGHT.. problem is, there isn't a right or wrong necessarily, just often times a better way.

one thing I've learned with having my existing tank for the last 5 years is that I have replaced pretty much everything on it and and at one point in time said to myself "boy... I wish I would've done it that way to begin with" I don't want to say it this time around.. hence the time I'm spending planning.

 

[mattseattle]

Now you know why it took me a year to set up my 125. I trusted Paul @ OM and he didn't lead me wrong. There are tons of ways to do one thing so make it simple and stay that way.

 

[class clown]

I just called Curt at Neptune and verified with him that each socket on the DC8s are rated to last up to 1 million on/off cycles. If by chance I use up 1 socket, I can always switch to the remaining 7.

So.. 1,000,000 cycles at 5 min per cycle = should last me 5,000,000 minutes or 9.6 years.

if I make the setting at 10 min per cycle, that's 19 years.

He didn't think it was necessary to upgrade to their DC4HD model. Each socket can handle 5 amps. the reeflo's draw is under 2 amps.

Either way.. It doesn't seem like the ACIII that would be the failing point in option #3. Agree? probably not, but that's ok

 

[DonW]

I just called Curt at neptune and verified with him that each socket on the DC8s are rated to last up to 1 million on/off cycles. if by chance I use up 1 socket, I can always switch to the remaining 7.

So.. 1,000,000 cycles at 5 min per cycle = should last me 5,000,000 minutes or 9.6 years.

if I make the setting at 10 min per cycle, that's 19 years.

Either way.. It doesn't seem like the ACIII that would be the failing point in option #3. Agree?

At what amperage. Relays are cycle rated and a constant levels well below max not motor spikes. Its all about the motor your driving has nothing to do with the pump head or the relay life cycle rating. The older the motor gets the bigger the spike is going to be.

Don

 

[class clown]

Sorry.. I need to make some corrections to the info that Don quoted above...

I called Curt at Neptune and learned the following:

The Dc8's use a technology called "Triac" - they will not wear out over time because of on/off switches. they will wear out because of operating over specs, but je said there will be no problems whatsoever with wear out with alternating those reeflo darts pumps on/off every 5 minutes b/c their draw (2 amps) is well under the max per outlet (I beleive their max is 5).

The Dc4's are the one's that are rated up to 1,000,000 on/off cycles. they have a rated amp for the relay up to 8 or 12 depending on what model you get.

sorry for any confusion.

 

[class clown]

At what amperage. Relays are cycle rated and a constant levels well below max not motor spikes. Its all about the motor your driving has nothing to do with the pump head or the relay life cycle rating. The older the motor gets the bigger the spike is going to be.

Don

for the DC8's... it's Max 6 Amps per outlet and the total current must be less than 15 Amps.

 

[DonW]

Sorry.. I need to make some corrections to the info that Don quoted above...

I called Curt at Neptune and learned the following:

The Dc8's use a technology called "Triac" - they will not wear out over time because of on/off switches. they will wear out because of operating over specs, but je said there will be no problems whatsoever with wear out with alternating those reeflo darts pumps on/off every 5 minutes b/c their draw (2 amps) is well under the max per outlet (I beleive their max is 5).

The Dc4's are the one's that are rated up to 1,000,000 on/off cycles. they have a rated amp for the relay up to 8 or 12 depending on what model you get.

sorry for any confusion.

Motor spikes can be up to 6 times the rating. You dont have enough information to make a determination either way. It will be a coin toss. Scooter can chime in and explain what will happen probably better than I can put into words.

Don

 

[class clown]

Motor spikes can be up to 6 times the rating. You dont have enough information to make a determination either way. It will be a coin toss. Scooter can chime in and explain what will happen probably better than I can put into words.

Don

Ok.. I just wrote Chris again at reeflo to find out worse case scenario what I could experience in the way of motor spikes from these pumps. I'll let you know what I hear back.

 

[Scooterman]

Word:
MDM Sequence; Reeflow sells you pumps that they manufacturer, they don't design & build electric motors. For them to cover the pumps is great but at how many times do you want to replace your motors & them eventually asking whats up is up to you & your pocket book. I'd give the motors a generous month before they burn up or your controller burns up.

Can you control a motor & make it last yes. We've built large MCC's (Motor control centers), the size of a portable building as 8ft wide & 60ft long double stacked, few times even larger. Each motor has what is called a bucket (or soft start) that controls each motor, the bucket is specifically engineered to handle a specific motor, logically, series of relays, MOV's (Metal Oxide varistor's), Caps (Capacitors), transformers, switches etc. Granted most range from 1 h.p. to 100H.P. more or less, the principles are the same even for the tiny 1/16hp or whatever it is, dart. Each spike will wear down components at an exponential rate, you may get a longer life than a month but I doubt they will hold up & to properly filter them would be to have them engineered.

I don't see justified advantages over the OM vrs. the MBV other than you can time the switching in the MBV with the simple timer relay, the other dis & advantages wash out basically. You have the OM, it is a great device, & switching every minute is great, tweaking it out & timing it would be nice but not necessary IMO, you will switch the flow up nicely if you go back to your original plan basically. You can add the Mod later, get your system up & running reliable, tweak out the reliability first then slowly add more safety back ups, mods etc as you go. JMO again!

If I said something incorrect please feel free to correct me, it happens LOL

 

[dragoneggs]

Following along closely here... my question is do I really need the DC8s or can I live with the DJ100 power strips ($30)? What is in the DC8s that make them cost so much more. I currently have the Octopus 4000.

 

[DonW]

Following along closely here... my question is do I really need the DC8s or can I live with the DJ100 power strips ($30)? What is in the DC8s that make them cost so much more. I currently have the Octopus 4000.

A dc8 is just a power strip with the electronics added to allow the AC to control each outlet. You cannot control the outlets of a dj power strip directly with a aquarium controller.

Don