More problems..I just can't win!

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Follow the directions given, 2.5mg/l = 9.25 mg/gal. I would give you a concentration in the higher range which is fine. It can either be done as a prolonged bath for three hours every three days for a total of three treatments or as a one time dose to the tank left for 5 days. Keep in mind though this works best for external worms.


It shouldn't bother anything but in saying that, I still wouldn't recommend it. The collateral damage it might cause to unseen organisms may not be immediately noticed if at all. Not a good idea to use anything in the display unless an oral dosage. The little bit that gets away from that will not negatively impact most systems usually unless small.

Cheers
Steve

Nevermind..I found this
okay, going to bed now

 

[NaH2O]

Holy cow girl! You are definately a night owl!

Steve - I have a question. If this is a type of parasitic copepod, how can it survive such low salinity? I wouldn't think a copepod could withstand SG 1.009. Also (alright, two questions), if this is something from the display tank, should the tank be fallow for any period of time?

 

[NaH2O]

I did some quick reading on parasitic Copepods - WOW! One thing I read is they have a worm-like appearance. Then this from Stoskopf's "Fish Medicine", page 656

Members of the Cecropidae, Caligidae, Hatschekiidae, Lernanthropidae, Ergasilidae, and Chondracanthidae are found on the gills or skin of fish. The parasites damage the gills by grasping and anchoring, causing tissue irritation, occlusion of blood vessels, destruction of filaments, and epithelial hyperplasia. The parasites damage skin, causing epithelial thickening, erythema, fibroblast proliferation, infiltration of macrophages and lymphocytes, and dermal hemorrhage.

I'm curious if an infestation is this severe, and dermal hemorrhage and erythema are symptoms, then why wouldn't there be more redness? Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly. Also, is there a risk of these jumping on human skin, like parasitic isopods? (is that dumb to ask? )

Based on the images I found, the "tail" of these parasitic copepods certainly looks like that is what I saw hanging on the fish. Extremely small, but like in the picture something is hanging there.

Kim - take a look at these:

Caligidae:

Hatschekiidae:

Lernanthropidae:

 

[steve-s]

DOH!! I checked back on my Potters thread and found the Furan dose you suggested there was 15mg/gallonfor was it 7 days with no water changes ?[of course I have to change the water daily] I guess I should go do another water changd to dilute it But, in only a few hours, the large bloches are gone, he now has much smaller polka dots:eek2:

I've edited that thread so it does not confuse in future.
7.5 mg/gal based on the level of nitrifurazone in the Furan 2. Add daily for 4-5 days with a 25% water change prior to each new dose.

And I also want to check, 20 drops of formalin per gallon? And is it okay to do a formalin dip in water with sg of 1.009-1.010? The place I worked Wed. puts formalin in the freshwater dips...yikes!!

Yes, 20 drops per gallon.

Use new SW at the same salinity, temp and pH as the QT well aerated before hand and a temp no higher than 78°. I do not recommend FW formalin baths, the normal hypo level of 14 ppt = 1.011 SG is no worry. Are you measuring with a refractometer? It should not be 1.009 = 12 ppt?

Make sure you wear gloves and eye protection, the room is well ventilated or outdoors and you have a seperate bath container (well aerated) that the fish can be "rinsed in" after the formalin and the back into the QT.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

I have a question. If this is a type of parasitic copepod, how can it survive such low salinity? I wouldn't think a copepod could withstand SG 1.009. Also (alright, two questions), if this is something from the display tank, should the tank be fallow for any period of time?

There are so many species (1000+) I wouldn't know where to start. They are not readily affected by hyposalinity and many are not even phased by FW dips although it can be a good place to start. You might be able to dislodge a few but it will not be uncommon for them to remain unaffected. Infestation of the display is a concern but if the inhabitants do not show signs of infestation, it's not likely they are going to. While they are definately free swimming, infestation of tank mates is usually fish to fish so if the infected fish are removed, the unaffected usually remain so but that is by no means a certainty.

I'm curious if an infestation is this severe, and dermal hemorrhage and erythema are symptoms, then why wouldn't there be more redness? Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly. Also, is there a risk of these jumping on human skin, like parasitic isopods?

Hemorrhaging/redness/inflammation is not always noticed on the skin but may commonly be seen in the gill area of the fish. It is not exclusive to this parasite so it is not a key identifier to any specific parasitic species. As far as human contamination, there are many "terrestrial" FW parasites that can infest humans gastrointestinally when drinking impure water, it is possible I guess never really studied it much in terms of SW ectoparasites. Considering the need for skin/eye protection during treatment, it shouldn't be a concern.

Cheers
Steve

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

More confusion I have always been told Hypo is done at the SG of 1.009..Then I see where you and Terry suggest 14ppt [others suggest going as low as 11ppt] 14 ppt is around, as you state 1.011....so whats the deal? I have always gone by SG. and went by 1.009 [sometimes 1.008] I am surprised the lower salinity doesn't kill this if indeed its copepods Unless thats what all that sloughing was, the parasites dying and falling off.




NIKKI, I forgot to show you my Noga book! None of the fish have displayed the dermal hemorrhaging..besides a black spot here and there. This is why I am confused...this is what it states for Monogenean infestations [flukes]

Cloudiness to the skin, grey white cast or irregular areas on skin, eroded fins, focal hemmorrhages on skin pruritus
Also states that Neobenedenia melleni [a type of monogenean flutes] is common in many species and list them...first being Ancanthuridae


Digenean Trematode infections [which includes Digenean flukes]

White, yellow or black nodules on the skin, muscle, or viscera

Praziquantel can be used for both of these as well as the formalin and even freshwater dips.
Nogas book also states simple freshwater dips are one treatment for Copepode infestation as well as organophosphates [hmmmm, where can I order this? ]
The only way to be sure, as stated would be under a microscope..I could actually get a hold of the White face to do this but don't have the equipment.
So this is why I'm confused


This morning the large blotches are gone. But he still has his Polkadots..I don't think there are as many as before. I am going to dip him later ..I have to go get a few supplies first

Thanks everyone!!
Talk to ya later

 

[steve-s]

More confusion I have always been told Hypo is done at the SG of 1.009..Then I see where you and Terry suggest 14ppt [others suggest going as low as 11ppt] 14 ppt is around, as you state 1.011....so whats the deal? I have always gone by SG. and went by 1.009 [sometimes 1.008] I am surprised the lower salinity doesn't kill this if indeed its copepods Unless thats what all that sloughing was, the parasites dying and falling off.

1.009 is only recommended in the absence of a proper refractometer. Call it a safety zone for the often incorrect reading swing arm hydrometers give. With a proper refractometer, 14 ppt is the lowest you need to go for hyposalinity in regards to C. irritans although 12 ppt (1.009 SG) is not a concern. In regards to what we are doing here, the hypo is to reduce osmoregulatory stress, cut down on instances of secondary bacterial infection, improve the immune response and help maintain the fish's appetite. That really doesn't need to be lower than 14 ppt.

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Steve - my question about the display, was moreso because I noticed white spots on the racoon face and tail, but not really ich looking, if that makes sense (and no where near as severe as the tang)? Also, the clownfishes' skin looked odd. It is really hard for me to describe.

 

[steve-s]

The only way to be 100% sure is to treat all the fish and fallow the main display affected. The fallow time will need to be about 2 months though as the life cycle of the parasite is unknown due to lack of identification. More commonly the life cycle is about 2-3 weeks depending on environmental factors so it's best to be safe.

It's a call Kim will have to make since she has first hand knowledge of how the remaining fish in the diplay act/appear. If there is even a questionable iota of doubt, treat them. Personally I would treat the lot even if they didn't show symptoms. I would rather play safe and unneccessarily treat a healthy fish rather than all this effort wasted only to become reinfected later down the road. I would however suggest a seperate QT from the ones currently being treated.

Cheers
Steve

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

The Raccoons spots are gone today. Clown looking about the same. This has happened before. I want to treat all the fish before they go into my new tank, problem being, like Steve said, I don't want to place them in with the Tangs. I have left a 30 gallon and a 20. The small fish would be fine in these tanks, I am concerned about the Raccoon and Iridis [who burys himself and need some sand] I had thought about gutting out the 125 and treating them there. It will be coming down anyway. The 125 is on the main floor..I get my water from the bsmt that will kill me having to do daily water changes on that tank and my husband , who thinks I am 'obsessed' with my fish..will freak if I ask him to help me move this tank in the bsmt..So, I may have to go buy another 55, not sure where I will get the cash for that. My husband, I am sure won't give it to me. A rubbermad container? I won't be able to see but I may not have a choice.. I have been trying to think of a solution. I need to put the Raccoon in the new tank BEFORE the Tangs and Blueface so I need to be doing something quick...ahhh decisions

 

[steve-s]

A rubbermaid tote is a fast and easy solution. As for the wrasse, placing a shallow (2-3") plastic dish or two filled with sand should help. Since it's just antibiotic use, it shouldn't be a concern. You can also use eggcrate to divide a QT where necessary to stem aggression.

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Just so I'm not lost on what's going on....what is the course of action to treat the tangs? Formalin dips and nitrofurazone? Is the nitrofurazone being used to treat any secondary bacterial infections or potential bacterial infections from the parasites? How quickly would there be improvement?

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I medicated the Tangs with Furan-2..The large splotches on the Whiteface cleared up pretty quick. I am also doing formalin dips. Did the first one tonigght. The Whiteface looks better but is still on the botton of the tank.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Steve...I also did some reading on Trichodinosis infestations. This is also a possibility. Could even be whats in the main. I will post info on it for everyone later...I am going to bed now

 

[Willy]

I have (2) 18 gallon rubbermaid totes you are welcome to have them, they are just sitting here doing nothing.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I have (2) 18 gallon rubbermaid totes you are welcome to have them, they are just sitting here doing nothing.

Thanks! The fish in the display are okay for now..They seem to be able to fight off whatever it is thats in my tank so I have a little time. I want to try to get another 55 or better yet 75 to move them into and then I'll just take the 125 down and sell it. I will use a rubbermade if I absolutly have to but I hate not being able to see my fishys Plus they get all bent out of shape when full of water....maybe I should check into a baby pool !

Hey I am going to try and get to that fragaswapawhatever after work, so I may see you there!

Thanks again for the offer!

 

[steve-s]

Just so I'm not lost on what's going on....what is the course of action to treat the tangs? Formalin dips and nitrofurazone? Is the nitrofurazone being used to treat any secondary bacterial infections or potential bacterial infections from the parasites? How quickly would there be improvement?

The formalin is the main agent to combat the infestation, the Furan 2 (mainly for the nitrofurazone) is to combat any potential bacterial/Vibrio infections. Although the formalin should knock out the Vibrio as well, the nitro is just for added security.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Steve...I also did some reading on Trichodinosis infestations. This is also a possibility. Could even be whats in the main. I will post info on it for everyone later...I am going to bed now

Does look very similar in nature but I'm not too sure. It primarily seems to be a FW teleost affliction or mainly marine bottom dwellers. Does eem to be a strong possibility. In either event, the recommended treatment is still formalin so we are on the right track.

http://64.95.130.5/Diseases/DiseasesSummary2.cfm?discode=58

Cheers
Steve

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Well....I don't want to jinx myself but the Tang is looking a lot better. If you look at him from the side, you cannot see anything. If you look at him head on, you can see what looks like dead skin around his head. He is moving around more too so I am hopefull. The Hippo looks good and is eating as well. They are due for their next dip Monday night..It wasn't that bad, I guess...Although I keep getting strange thoughts about chemical explosions I am a worry wart, gotta worry about something..

 

[steve-s]

Good stuff. I won't say anymore. There's that jinx thing and all

Cheers
Steve