Question on flow -- Dart closed loop VS. Tunze Streams

[ROLLINS]

Hi, I have a question about flow. I have an acrylic Tru-View 120gallon 5ftx18”x2ft. I recently purchased a lightly used set of 2 Tunze stream 6100’s, and the 7094 multi-controller & light sensor (allows slow ramp-up, quick pulse, long slow pulses.. etc). I was also considering drilling & installing a 2” bulkhead in the back and running a closed loop setup w/ a sequence dart pump. I plan on having a lot of hard corals. My question is
1. Is one better than the other (tunze streams VS. Dart closed loop)
2. Could I have both? ….. too much or overkill.....pro's vs. cons....

The closed loop would be installed under euro-braced lid with about 8 1"X1"X3/4" T's with loc-line ends to adjust flow positioning. I know a lot of people hook up their closed loop w/ sea-swirls for added circulation, but the sea-swirls are pretty expensive. I like the idea of the dart due to the high flow, low cost and low power consumption. Thinking of future maintenance, the cost of one replacement tunze turbelle stream power head is equal to a dart pump.

As always, thanks for the help and advice.

Rollins

 

[fly guy]

Darts are worthless on closed loops on anything bigger than 75 gallons IMO, especially if you want a sps dominated tank

you will be lucky to be getting 2500 gph out of them and only then if you are a proficient plumber. throw a OM 4 way or something on their and plumb it average you will be lookign at not even 2000 gph. great quiet pumps, but cant handle headloss whatsoever. and every foiot of pipe and every turn you have is adding headloss.

having the powerheads and a closed loop can be agreat thing, especially if you use rocklifts and run spraybars to keep the floor clean and to clean off the backside of your rocks, but a dart is even the wrong pump to do that.
I dont like to look at powerheads in my displays so I run closed loops with big pumps as well as expect a lot out of my spraybars on both my BB and my DSB tanks. But this comes at a price of much more complicated to set up as well as heat added to the water and electricity.

so you really need to weigh that factor in and if it is important to you. If you do go with a closed loop as the primary means of flow a OM 4-way or 8 way cant be beat.

 

[Scooterman]

I beg to differ, I have the SQ4200 which is slightly larger impeller than the dart but It puts out a ton of flow, you don't have to consider vertical head loss on a cl, only frictional losses like the 90's & what little in the pipes themselves. One thing you have to do is plumb them 2" all the way in & a full 1 1/2" out to get the highest flow out of them, all depends on how it is done. I guarantee you that I get way over 3K If not close to 4K of flow out of mine.

 

[fly guy]

I understand the flow losses well and how clossed loops work........im not familiar with your pump or how well it handles friction loss...........

you can plug in the numbers any way you like and although using larger pipe like you say makes a huge difference.......darts simply suck for closed loops you expect anything out of. Ive used them on a couple of systems of mine and set up a few for others............Especially if you want to incorporate a spraybar as friction form those is huge and they simply take a pressure rated pump tp really do anything........

guesstimate the headloss on a simple configuration of a OM 4-way which is difficult as it changes all the time...so just guesstimate......and you will see you will be getting much closer to 2000 than 3000. change the pipe to smaller as most people use and it can be worse yet

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

take your results and compare it with the darts flow chart.....

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquar...erhead_manta_ray_tiger_shark_information.html

 

[burning2nd]

i would use 2... the tunzes are no joke and they can make some nice flow.... since i dont have or have ever messed with a dart i cant tell ya anything about that... but i can tell ya that any closed loop is a possttive.........

if you have to much flow (no such thing) you can time them, or figure something out to have the flow change with out haveing to have a controller or wave timer.

maybe have the tunzes run for 12 hours, have the closed loop run for 12 hours. but then have both runing for 1 hours ever 3 hours together,

 

[Scooterman]

When your dealing with more head like a spray bar I agree, I'm talking straight up CL very little or no Head losses, Mine doesn't have all that & yes you'd need a larger pump, all in the design though & yes you have to use 2" intake & 1 2/" out to get what I get out of mine. We're talking two different birds here, your talking more than the straight up CL but you can't beat the power consumption when done without all of the extras that basically cause troubles in time & IMO not worth the hassles, been there done that & I can make them work great but not worth It again IMO! I get better coverage with a header design flow wide across the bottom, back & out up mid, top anywhere I need it, easy & simple.

 

[Krish]

Tunzes or closed loop??? I ran a 75gal with mostly Tunze streams and was real happy with the flow. I also ran a 38 gal with over 100x turnover rate using 2 seperate closed loops and the flow was great as well. It's all up to what appeals to you more. Tunzes will take up more space in the tank, but are easy to setup (basically plug and play). Closed loops don't take up as much space in the tank, but is a bit more involved setting up and plumbing it all in. Both can provide you with the flow you'll need so I say shoot for whichever approach appeals to you more. Where the dart is concerned, I can't comment on the pump because I've never used one, but have always heard great things about Sequence pumps

 

[ReeferPatt]

I'd like to get in on this. I'm in the process of setting up a 140 gal. tank. It's drilled for a closed loop in 4 places. 2 in the back glass panel and 2 in the bottom in opposite corners in front of tank for returns from pump and the outlet to pump is also in bottom of tank right in the middle. "Was" wanting to use a Dart pump for the CL but now with what I've read here not so sure what pump to use. I'm trying to avoid or get away from powerheads in the tank. The tank also has dual overflows with dual returns. So will the Dart make enough flow or will it actually loose 1000+ gph due to head loss. It was my understanding that there was little or no headloss in a closed loop other the friction. All 4 inlets from pump will be 1". The feed to pump is also 1". Tank builder claimed 1" feed to pump was more than enough being it was on bottom of tank. I'm getting ready to plumb this thing in the next few days and need to know. I'm using Spayflex pvc and there should be only 3 maybe 4 90 deg. elbows in the plumbing. At least thats the plan.
The tank will be acro/sps dominated with a few choice lps. My current tank is way to crowded and I need to get this show on the road so someone please point me in the right direction before it's to late and I'm kicking myself in the you know what.
Thanks

 

[fly guy]

Tank builder claimed 1" feed to pump was more than enough being it was on bottom of tank. I'm getting ready to plumb this thing in the next few days and need to know. I'm using Spayflex pvc and there should be only 3 maybe 4 90 deg. elbows in the plumbing. At least thats the plan.

Thanks

your tank builder couldnt be more wrong. as scooterman said, you want to feed these pumps with no less than 2" piping and bulkhead from the tank.

You could actually feed a dart with 1" piping and not damage it or cause cavitation, but you would have to have 1" immediately coming out the outfeed side as well and I dont even know what exactly that would do to the flow....it would be bad.

Ive already stated how i feel and know from my experiencece with thse pumps and you can follow that headloss calculator I linked and figure out the headloss, and the link to the dart flow chart and they will back up what I said. Im a little bit of flow junkie but I run a hammerhead on my 90 and a hammerhead AND a barracuda on my 225, as I dont want to look at pumps in my display either.

You dont want any less than a barracuda on a tank yoru size...hammerhead even better. If its too much, simply scale the ball valve after the pump back. this will use less electriciyt and be less ear and tear on the pump anyway in most cases. Tapering it back from potential is easy....making it flow more than potential is impossible.

so your 1" bulkhead CLS infeed isnt going to cut it no matter how you slice it. a 2" wpould work iuf you went with the dart, butbut with a hammerhead or a barracuda its best to go with 2- 1.5" bulklheads feeding into a 2"T and then to the pump. You then cover your cls infeed bulkheads with spa safety suction covers. they are super low profile(only stick out 1/2") and cna handle 4800 gph apiece. they spread the suction well so any critter can safely walk right across them

 

[Jobiwan]

Nuts and bolts, here it is: If you've ever snorkeled/dived on a real reef, you know that you can't have too much flow, but you can have too little. Set your system up to the max you can afford with all other considerations, err on the side of excessive flow, and you will be fine. Same same Tunzes vs CL's, it's all about moving water. You simply can't do too much, as long as you are using common sense and not blasting frog spawns and such with head on direct flow (you will have a few areas with lighter flows, assuming you have live rock deflecting things), you can't go wrong, anyone who tells you otherwise is just defending their own systems, Tunzes are fantastic, anything Sequence makes is outstanding, stick with quality like this and you'll be a guru before you know it, assuming of course you made it through the hardest three years of your life....the ninth grade......

 

[WA coral]

Well In my opnion the dart is the way to go I have a 270 and use it for my closed loop with 2 - 1&1/2 intakes and 4- 3/4 inch outlets and it pushes alot of water,looks clean and has been quiet and very reliable with no maint. yet, also I have it plumbed in appeox 10 feet away from my tank with 90's t's etc the only other flow I have is my sump return at 1500gph I think on a 75 both tunz and dart are overkill and even the dart will be a ton of flow

 

[fly guy]

with 3/4" outlets you are fooling yourself on howmuch flow you think you have

smaller outlets= less flow more velocity

larger outlets = more flow less velocity


without getting into the psecifics WAcoral, you have at most 12x turnover in your display

larger outlets privide you with much more and more usable flow than blowing it out of little holes, getting less flow in the process and having to be more careful where you aim it

Im not saying these things to diss anyones CLS's. its simple physics. I dont doubt that thye work very well for you and your tanks are nic........ but it would work better if you were driving them with more powerful pumps and plumbing them with approprpriate outlets. you never want smaller than 1" outlet ports on any size tank

 

[Scooterman]

I do have the suction side with two 1 1/2" intakes that header up to 2" on that pump, & I do split up the flow with a MBV so that makes a huge difference. If your going straight up CL with no directional changes then you would need to double the size of that pump, like a HH or Cuda or one of the many others out there. There are so many ways to accomplish the same task, I just designed mine to reduce the amount of power consumed by design, a pump running continuously will consume more power than anything else on a reef tank, including lighting, usually one pump will accomplish that alone. I also have many outlets that spread the flow softly but cover more area, nothing settles, no I can't make an ocean wave but I do get good random flow.Point is there are many options & ways & we can all discuss this until blue & all come up with pros & cons to each design, the important thing here is planning & putting real effort into this because we all can agree it is very important & many things to consider with designing a CL.

 

[Skimmy]

to me it's a no brainer...
tunze all the way, period!!!
why??

because of those tiny little nozzel outlets on closed loops, innapropriate garbage!!! that is definately not how water moves in the ocean.
not to mention all the potential failure points of all the different plumbing seams, unions, bulkheads.
then theres the power your spending in as year, and the maintenance the cl requires.

the way that tunze move a "wall of water" as opposed to a finger sized nozzel is very natural and i think waaay more benificial to alll the reef's inhabitants.
if you want to get tricky, take that money you were going to spend on a cl and buy a couple sea swirls or wavy seas and attach your tunze streams to them so the flow rotates in your tank.

 

[Scooterman]

the way that tunze move a "wall of water" as opposed to a finger sized nozzel is very natural and i think waaay more benificial to alll the reef's inhabitants.

Why I use 3" flairs with a mix of rounds, & don't use direct flow rather reflected flow off glass. Either or though, I like them both & both can have issues.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Outside of being big and ugly, my large SEIOs move a ton of water with very little juice and the controller keeps things changing up at all times... As with anything else, a matter of economics. Value being equal, "you get what you pay for".

 

[Jobiwan]

Have any of you folks used eductor/penductors? I just got some to play with, they definitely take care of the 3/4" high pressure/low flow issue since that is just what they need for optimal efficiency. Custom Aquatics has them in 3/4 and 1 inch, I got the 1 inchers, they are pretty amazing, I'm surprised they aren't more commonly used, I'd like to learn more about them if anyone else has any experience with them.......

 

[fly guy]

Have any of you folks used eductor/penductors? I just got some to play with, they definitely take care of the 3/4" high pressure/low flow issue since that is just what they need for optimal efficiency. Custom Sealife has them in 3/4 and 1 inch, I got the 1 inchers, they are pretty amazing, I'm surprised they aren't more commonly used, I'd like to learn more about them if anyone else has any experience with them.......

Ive played with them some.

Using OM units they dont work so well, but for setting up simple CLS with constant flow to the ports they can move some serious water for cheap.

 

[Jobiwan]

Yeah, I didn't consider using them on my Hammerhead/OM's, I'm trying them on the Iwaki 55 & 70 returns, since they are pressure rated pumps they seem to work well with the penductors...

 

[jezzeaepi]

I use tunze on my system and couldn't be happier. I have 2 6101's on a controller in my 125g, and they are only running at 30-60% power. With the way the pumps constantly fulctaute the flow every few seconds(fast pulse option), it hits every area in the tank. Nothing settles for more then a second or two. If I turned the flow up anymore id have a sandstorm... These things are powerfull units. They are quiet, use a lot less energy, move more water, and theres no plumbling to deal with or bulkheads to fail on you.