210 Gallon In Wall Build

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Beautiful Install. Back in the day I also had a 210 Display with 125 Sump. The one thing i did NOT notice in your new setup, was a vent fan in your fish room to the outside. The window is in there and could be opened (temporary solution) which is good but you may want to think of installing a dedicated bathroom style ceiling fan into the wall and venting it outside. With that water volume you will create a lot of humidity and i would hate to see mold destroy your new basement over time.

Love the sump design I may steal a few of the features on my next build, and I also noticed the lack of fuge area.
 
Jesse_emel - the fish room does have a dedicated exhaust fan, just can't see it in the pictures. I believe it is rated at 180 cfm (can't remember)...

I struggled with doing an in sump or separate fuge. As of right now I am planning on a separate fuge. The only disadvantage I can think of with a separate fuge is the additional plumbing and an extra pump. Anything else I'm not thinking of?
 
Jesse_emel - the fish room does have a dedicated exhaust fan, just can't see it in the pictures. I believe it is rated at 180 cfm (can't remember)...

I struggled with doing an in sump or separate fuge. As of right now I am planning on a separate fuge. The only disadvantage I can think of with a separate fuge is the additional plumbing and an extra pump. Anything else I'm not thinking of?

The only thing i can think of is a fuge compartment for healthy pod populations and biological filtration via some cheato, other types of beneficial algae more live rock and a deeper sand bed. You'll need a sump light in that case as well. It looks like the area under the tank is wide open and clear so i would make the sump as large as possible and integrate a fuge area (all in one). If you relocate your return pump around to the side instead of at the end you would have more room for the length of your sump. As for the back of the tank I always painted mine (except the overflows). when i did cleaning/maintenance i always shut the pumps off for a bit and you can see through the calm water while standing over the tank. I liked to leave the overflows un-painted so i could see if any fish jump in (And they will) Excellent job so far I hope you get up and running soon. Looking forward to seeing some progress.
 
I like the filter sock design, smart and easy to deal with, the 3+ years gave you time to think and it shows! :D


Congrats and look forward to seeing water!
 
Yes there is about another 12 inches that I could use under the tank to increase the size of the sump so a fuge could be added. The 3D model helps illustrate that.

<img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-swO5TU-oNSY/UNO9NupEMoI/AAAAAAAAIJI/rsDzMvVPza4/s640/Sump%25203D_2.png" width="800" />

But this would leave me with a rather small fuge unless I changed the configuration dramatically with a "rear" fuge that ran parallel to the sump flow. I for sure will use a fuge, just wasn't sure if there was some specific benefit to having it in the sump itself vs a separate tank. I have also seen a couple of separate fuge tanks that have a couple of seahorses in them which I think is a cool idea (yes I know they eat the pods). I had a seahorse tank a few years back and loved it, so the idea of having a fuge/seahorse tank on the counter in the fishroom is kind of appealing.

Love the feedback!

Oh and Scooty... :lalala:
 
On the pump you should include shutoff valves and unions. Nothing quite as fun as trying to take the pump out for service (mine has swallowed two rocks so far) and deal with catching everything.

You might want to add a place for probes in the skimmer section and an Auto top off (or float) in the pump section.
 
Nothing major to report over the past week or so; been working on the small stuff like rebuilding my Dart pump, the SW mixing platform and other such odds & ends.

Here is the rendering of what the SW mixing "station" will look like.

<img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Mf500iKw1Q0/UOG6s30oRmI/AAAAAAAAIJg/6qJZ2ydbwds/s800/Capture.jpg" height="350" width="800" />

The platform was a bit time consuming because the inlet of the pump (Pan World 40PX) is 1/4" lower than the outlet of the two water tanks, so the top was constructed out of three pieces of plywood instead of one. Waiting on the pump(s) (and other goodies) from BRS and then I can put all the plumbing together.

<img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0jD2SQKQY08/UOHANHS6-lI/AAAAAAAAIJ4/vN0i4dWuhyM/s800/IMAG0304.jpg" height="478" width="800" />

Some general thoughts...

One of the goals of this whole system is to automate whatever I can. I travel at least 1 week out of the month so that leaves my wife to take care of the tank and I would like to make it simple for her. This SW mixing station (ATO and water change) will primarily controlled through the Apex. Water changes will be continuous via 2 50ml dosing pumps instead of weekly so the actual work involved in water changes will be no more than to push a button, turn two valves, pour in some salt. The Apex programming will take care of the rest (ie how long to run the circulation pump, when to turn the dosing pumps back on, etc).

Happy New Year!
 
this is an awesome thread. I have a custom 200g tank we are building now and when we buy our place around December we will be putting it in the wall as well. I'm sure I will be referring to this thread and your tank for ideas.

thanks!
 
this is an awesome thread. I have a custom 200g tank we are building now and when we buy our place around December we will be putting it in the wall as well. I'm sure I will be referring to this thread and your tank for ideas.

thanks!

I will tell you the 3 years it has taken me to get to this point is probably the best thing I could have done, even if it does make me cringe a bit when I think about how long the tank has been dry. Scooty's comment earlier:
the 3+ years gave you time to think and it shows!
is spot on. So my best advice to you Swifter is to plan, plan and then re-plan before the tank gets wet. Looking forward to your build thread when you get it started!
 
A few better pictures to share...

35 gallon tanks on the new platform. You can see the RO/DI unit to the left. My OCD side kicked in when I pulled it out of storage and realized that it went right to left and my layout called for left to right. Most people would have probably just looped the tubing over, but no I had to disassemble the whole thing and reverse it so it went left to right... :frusty: I was also mildly irritated with myself that I hadn't drained the unit completely before I boxed it up in the garage; will need to replace all but the particle filter because of damage from ice expansion.
<img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VAzZ1o8vH6Y/UOUGVhOwgkI/AAAAAAAAIKQ/UsICvb886Ng/s800/IMG_3885.JPG" width="800" />

I know Jesse mentioned an exhaust fan earlier so here is a picture of it. The soffit you see is because if I had exhausted the 6" duct completely horizontal it would have gone through the ledger board of my deck.
<img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eRrDifh0wh8/UOUGuzZ-3AI/AAAAAAAAIKo/Ol87zUQaMhE/s800/IMG_3889.JPG" width="800" />

If you look back at some older pictures you will notice that the left and right counters are not joined; this was by design. However the longer I stood around in the fish room the more I realized that I really would like a counter there. It was then that I realized that the counters were not the same height (off by 3/4" which happens to be the thickness of the counter top :clap2:) In the end it turned out fine, but was a bit of a carpentry hat trick to get all four edges to match up to their respective surfaces (ie. counter to counter to wall to front edge). Oh and that is the disassembled (but cleaned and repainted) Dart waiting for new seals from Reeflo sitting on the counter.
<img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-15xSv1YtRuQ/UOUGizE4PZI/AAAAAAAAIKg/WVlOKNmSHYE/s800/IMG_3907.JPG" width="800" />

Finally does anyone have any experience with the AGA standpipes? They appears to be pretty standard dursos. Should I look at replacing them with a different style?
<img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QuhWybw-YYg/UOUGaFpqMhI/AAAAAAAAIKY/YkAJvoxZt7s/s800/IMG_3893.JPG" width="600" />
Hope everyone had a great New Year's!!!
 
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Well I was pretty well set on the AI Sol fixture until reading the posts by Mojo over in the OBD threads... Guess a road trip over the Cascades is in order to take a look at the new store and see a man about an LED fixture or two.
 
Wow....great build and kudo's to you and the wife for having the patience to do this right.

My thoughts....worth every penny you paid for em.....

I would strongly suggest having a stand alone fuge. You could easily use either a 20 long or a 30 breeder as a fuge, above the main display, (it appears you have the room in the pictures on the first page). Feed it with either a manifold from your return pump or use an additional pump to feed up to it, and allow it to gravity drain into either your sump or your display.

I say this for a few reasons. You may decide that you dont need a fuge or it doesnt suit your application. It will be significantly easier to remove it or re-purpose it as a frag tank or a species specific tank at a later date if its not part of your sump.

Also, adding a fuge to your sump means you need to add a light to your sump. Adding a light to your sump means you need will be growing algae (calcareous and otherwise inside parts of your sump and inside your skimmer. It adds to maintainance.

Keeping your sump dark and allowing a "settling area" will allow for an easy place to clean out collected detritus that makes its way past the filter socks, and means your skimmer cleaning regimen will pretty much be restricted to the collection cup and to the pumps. You will need to soak the skimmer body and internals in vinager from time to time to clear out any critters growing inside, (vermetid snails, micro dusters etc), but it will allow your skimmer to perform optimally for longer with less effort from you.

Regarding the plumbing...

I have one of the AGA Durso's like yours. I have zero issues with it. It was honestly one of the very few set and forget things I've ever had in this hobby...and I've been in it for going on 26 years now.

I also suggest using Unions and ball valves whenever possible. I've found that unions and ball valves, and Tru Union Ball Valves all restrict down approximately 1/4 of an inch. Rather than restrict my pump with back pressure, I prefer to use oversized unions, ball valves, etc, and then purchase a reducer to the appropriate size.
For example: Lets say your plumbing was to 1 inch in diameter. I would use 1.25 inch unions, ball valves, etc, and use 1.25 inch to 1 inch reducers to make the main plumbing fit. It wont completely prevent back pressure, but it will cut down on it significantly.

Buy back ups for your gear. Whatever your return pump is, set up unions and ball valves on both the intake and output sides of the pump, and then have a spare pump ready to go. Pumps never fail when you have time and money to replace or repair them. Having a back up ready to go at a moment's notice can literally be a life saver for your tank.

Top off....
Personally, I'm not a fan of auto top off's with float valves. I've seen waaaaaay too many tanks get nuked from either hyposalinity issues when a float got stuck, pH spikes when a float valves feeding a kalk reactor got stuck open, or floods caused by faulty float valves.

I bit the bullet and purchased a LiterMeter 3 many years ago, and its never failed me. Program it to dispense X amount of water, and that's what it will dispense.
Period. Hook it up to a storage tank, and that's literally all that it can dispense.

The drawbacks to it are these:

Expensive
Will only dispense the amount of water its programmed to. The evaporation rates in basement differ from summer to winter, so I need to reprogram it every 6 months, but that's really, really simple. I just lower the amount of water it dispenses.
Hooked up to a fixed water supply means that you will need to pay attention to the water level in the water supply. It will need to be topped off from time to time.

In my case, I have a 250 gallon total system volume. I'm currently using a LM3 to handle top off. I'm using about 3 gallons of water a day in evaporation daily. The LM3 is hooked up to a Brute 44 Gallon trash can filled with RO. I'm going about 14 days between needing to fill up the Brute again with fresh RO.

I had a sump leak a couple of years ago, (actually, my skimmer went nuts and began splashing water out of the sump, lowering the total water volume in the sump. If I'd had a typical top off using a float valve, I would have lost most if not all of my tank due to hyposalinity issues, (and probably not recognized what was the cause since the tank is in the basement). Having the LM3 meant that it was only putting the programmed amount of water. When the return pump began sucking air and cavitating, (and making noise) I was able to go downstairs and figure out the issue.

Plan for things to go wrong. Then plan for ways to address what went wrong.

Finally, one of the guys local to me uses black fabric to cover the back of his tank. It prevents the distraction of being able to look through the tank and see his tank room, but it allows him to quickly and easily remove them to do any sort of work on the tank if need be. Cheap and reletively easy to do too.

Good luck, it looks like you're going to have a great system.

Nick
 
Wow Nick! I owe you a cup of coffee or something for all of that typing!

I am strongly leaning toward a separate fuge, however I will likely put it on the back counter as I would like to retain the head room above the tank to raise and lower the light assembly for acclimations, maintenance, etc. I also like the idea of being able to "watch" the fuge. I have heard some people suggest the overhead scenario to prevent the return pump from pulverizing the pods, is that part of your reasoning for the overhead fuge? But as I type this it got me thinking about how I could place an overhead fuge. In theory I could do a fuge about 9" x 24" as this would only overhang the left edge of the tank by about 2"; just enough for the drain to hit the tank and still leave room to raise/lower the lights. Image below is a rough rendering of the idea...
<img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LsDq2F6hIyY/UOWz6Asf-NI/AAAAAAAAIK8/GUhnE_qemQk/s800/Fuge1.png" width="800" />

Glad to hear your AGA dursos work well, I'll take that off of my list of concerns for now.

While I hate the outrageous prices of true unions, they will be utilized where appropriate. I'm almost done with the renderings of all the plumbing and will post those in the next couple of days for feedback.

I agree with you on having backup equipment, just painful to actually do it. :decision:

Great comments on the ATO. The issues you mentioned are indeed concerns that I have, however I hadn't thought about using a dosing pump(s) set at a specific flow rate. Since I was going to use a LM3 for the water changes I could just add the third pump head to that. Have you experienced any large swings in your salinity because your replacement isn't matched up to your evaporation? How long did it take you to dial in your ATO amounts? Also because of stories about skimmers going nuts, I was thinking of putting a float switch in the collection cup. Probably wouldn't be the perfect solution but it would at least help, right?

Love the idea of the black cloth as it is finally something inexpensive in this cluster of a hobby we love. I was thinking about a thin sheet of black acrylic (or something similar) that would sit between the upper and lower frames of the tank.

Thanks again for all of the feedback Nick, it is greatly appreciated!
 
Mike,
I was drinking the coffee as I typed...;)
I'm not worried about the pods being pulverized by the pump....yeah, I'm sure it happens to some degree, but plenty of them get through unscathed to start up a breeding population quickly enough. Its not a big enough concern for me.

I was suggesting the overhead Fuge for a couple of reaons.

1....You're going to be running out of counter space quickly enough. You'll see....
2...placing it above the tank and T'ing off your return/using a manifold to feed it and allowing gravity to drain it means you're using less electricity for your system and its one less thing to go wrong.

As far being able to raise/lower the lights for work etc....You I dont know how much room you have over your tank, but you really dont need more than about 2-2.5 feet of space to be able to do anything in your tank....seriously. And I'm being waaay generous.

A 20 long will give you more than enough room for a fuge/algae farm (which is what most fuges really are) and wont take up too much room.

You're rendering looks pretty good too. It just means that the plumbing to/from it is a little more complicated.

I prefer simple whenever possible. I work rotating shifts and have 3 little girls, (Twin 3 year olds and 6 month old) so simpler often means less time working on it. And time is something I just dont have enough of right now.

Speaking of time, I dont use my LM3 for water changes, that's too time consuming. I just use an old submersible pump a (Quiet One I think) and use it to add water to my tank. Another thing to consider is that by doing a slow water change with the system running, (like say with a LM3) means you're not exactly doing a "real" water change. Lets say you have a 50 gallon barrel of new ASW. You set up your LM3 to slowly drain 50 gallons from your system while its simultaneously adding the new ASW. At the end of it, you've removed 50 gallons from your system, but you were adding it at the same time, diluting the old dirty waste water currently in your system with the new ASW you were mixing in....so did you really make a 50 gallon water change? Not really...... Its not as effective as shutting down yoru sump, sucking out 50 gallons of old water and filling it with new ASW...make sense?

I have a 120 display, a 40 breeder frag tank, and a 58 display all plumbed into a common sump which is a converted 75 gallon holding about 50 gallons with enough room for a 20 gallon "oops".

Water changes for me consist of using a hand siphon to remove about 5-6 gallons of water from the 120 display and the frag tank since they are both bare bottom. Then I shut off the return pumps and shut the plumbing with the ball valves. Then I turn off everything off in the sump, and use a Python (basically an green colored water bed filling device marketed to aquarium hobbyists for more money) and use it to suck up water from the first 2 compartments of my sump.

All told, this consists of about 45-46 gallons of water being changed which is a 20% water change for my system.

I leave the Tunze's/powerheads inside the tanks running to provide circulation while I'm doing the water change.

Then I use the Quiet One pump to refill the sump. When the sump is filled enough to allow the return pumps, skimmer, and heater to be turned back on I do so and fill up the tank. Overall, the whole length of time for a water change takes me about 30 minutes max...

I make sure to get the new salt water parameters to match the system's so there is no shocking the system.

As far as a float switch for your skimmer goes....yeah, you can do it, but again, its another thing to go wrong. I dont like float valves. Too easily knocked out of whack or locked up by snails etc..... I find it easier to just assume my skimmer is going to go nuts and just allow for it. In my previous example, the outflow of the skimmer started splashing heavily for some reason and was rasied above the rim of the sump. I no longer use that skimmer or sump and have the current skimmer's outflow well below the rim of the sump. There is no way it can splash water out of the sump.

If it goes crazy and overflows the cup, (pretty hard cause its a big cup), it will overflow into the sump. Okay, so what. I clean the skimmer every time I do a water change, (usually weekly), so there isnt anything really nasty in there to begin with. When my Long spined urchin spawns, (male, broadcast spawner) that throws the skimmer into fits....it will rapidly bubble over the cup and into the tank. This seems to happen about once a month and I just shut off the skimmer when it does. Wait a day, and turn the skimmer back on. No problem. Paying attention to your tank will give you better information with regards to what is likely to happen. The urchin climbs up to the surface of the tank and broadcast spawns once a month, usually after I do a water change....I just pay attention when I'm doing the water change and go from there....

Regarding back up equipment...yes, its expensive and a PITA........but what will you have invested in all of your livestock when its all said and done? Can you afford to replace everything every couple of years because of a pump failure? What about when you take your pumps off line for maintenance?

One last thing to think about....Quarentine. I dont see any plans for a QT set up in your renderings.

QT for incoming fish is HUGE! I would SERIOUSLY suggest heading over to Lee Birch's Marine Fish Forum and reading his articles on QT and feeding. Lee knows his stuff and because of his information and my past errors, I now QT any and all fish going into my system. My fish have been disease free for several years now.
It seems like everytime someone with a massively well designed and thought out system doesnt take the time to QT their fish and winds up wiping out their entire system with an out break of either Velvet or Ich, or flukes or something....

A simple 30 long with pvc fittings in it could quite easily be a QT set up for your system. When not using it, just drain it, clean it, and put it in storage.

Seriously man....find a place for a QT set up for your system...you'll regret it otherwise.

Nick
 
Nick - thanks again for the great feedback!

While not shown or mentioned previously, there will be QT!

I have about 3 ft of clearance between the top of the tank and the ceiling (the downstairs of the house has 9 1/2 ft ceilings) so plenty of room to move the lights out of the way.

Here is a slightly different view of the above tank fuge on the left side of the tank. Since I have a little over 6" between the wall and the left edge of the tank I can actually just run the supply from the sump return pump straight up and the drain straight down into the tank.
<img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fq1Z9DFJufk/UOXOpZk7jhI/AAAAAAAAILM/EaYVrsMnmn8/s800/fuge2.png" width="800" />

In regards to the water changes, I totally get what you are saying, however this article Water Changes in the Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley is rather convincing on why smaller incremental water changes can be just as beneficial (albeit slightly less efficient) as the larger water changes. Not saying it is the definitive authority of water change science, but it did get me thinking enough to lean toward a continuous small batch water change concept. With so many different ways people have done things with their systems it is hard to know which is the better solution, especially when you begin to factor in the fringe elements such as time, cost, convenience, idiot proof, etc.

My thought is to basically change out about 5 gallons a day via the LM3 (this would take a little over 6 hours at 50ml per minute) which would result in 35 gallons a week or roughly 15% of total system volume. If it used the maximum speed of the LM3 (250ml per minute), a 5 gallon change would take just over an hour. I would likely do a monthly large batch water change so I could siphon out the sump, but because of the continuous small batch changes I would have a little flexibility of when I needed to do this. I am also trying to make water changes as "easy" as possible as my schedule while not rotating like yours, does require me to travel about 1 week a month and I would like something in place that my wife can manage without getting the glare (you know the one that only a wife can do).

Love to hear any additional thoughts you have on the water changes. Your thorough explanations and feedback are greatly appreciated!
 
I cant get that page to load for me, (the RHF Article), so I'll have to wait to see precisely what it says.
If its the one I'm thinking about, RHF is encouraging people to make more frequent water changes that are smaller in size, IE, Weekly 5% water changes vs a monthly 20% water change.

I could be wrong though.

Regarding you being out of town for a week or two for work....

If you can set up a healthy system with stable parameters, it will handle the odd week or two without a water change.
Lots of gorgeous tanks are set up where the owner only does a monthly water change of approx 20%.
If you're doing a weekly water change of 5% and have to skip it for a week or two due to work, if the rest of your system is stable, that's really not going to affect anything. Since it wont effect anything, and you're not asking the wife to do anything but enjoy the tank and possibly feed it while you're gone....you shouldnt get the "glare" at all.

Yes, I know the "glare".

Just something to think about...

Another thought for you....

In my 120 display, in order to minimize backpressure on my pump, (in my case, a Panworld 100-PXX), I didnt bother using the output side of the overflow.

My particular pump has a one inch output. The returns drilled for my 120 Oceanic are 3/4 inch sized. So I went ahead and just turned the "factory" returns into drains. It allows another margin of error in my favor if one or both of the main drains gets clogged somehow. Its never happened, but the possibility is there.

I just plumbed the "returns" into a drain manifold so I have 4 drains, (2 that are one inch in diameter and 2 that are 3/4 inche in diameter), all which drain into a 1.5 inch pipe that drains into my sump by the skimmer.

Again, the main reason I did this was to reduce back flow as much as possible. Less back flow, less work for the pump. The less the pump works, the longer it lasts and the less heat it generates.

In setting up my 120 I was doing my level best to reduce electricity usage and heat generated. I succeeded so well that the chiller I had to use on my 58 gallon was replaced by a 300 watt heater.
 
wow, just amazing. I am really impress by you job Michael. You have don professional setup. I am waiting for more pic when you 'll done complete??

Hope to have water in the tank in about three or four months. We'll see how it goes...
 
Just got back from a road trip to Seattle. Wanted to go check out the Oceans by Design grand opening. While I was there I went ahead and ordered three of their 6 puck LED light fixtures. Just have to wait for Mike to wire them to work with my Apex controller.
 
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