Scooterman
Well-known member
I know some people including myself who eliminated the skimmer all together, used MM for a while and filter socks.
new sump
- Thread starter spieszak
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After you get done with this thread w are gonna need a therapist
wonder if we could do a group by then......
Lady......................... I already need a therapist............................. LOL.
NC2WA
Well-known member
if 3 is considered a group, then I'm sure this would easily be filled.
LOL LOL
To the filter socks... they trap lots, but don't allow things to work on them.. Mechanical filtration is great, until you get lazy (and I SO do sometimes) and trates spike. I'm on the side of allowing the detritus to be 'free' so that the life in my sump can work on it.. Capturing it in a way that continues to happen would have to be part of the solution I think, at least for me.
To the MM, I've heard some good things and some bad. Its a weird discussion that one, in that folks seem to be extra passionate about it. My worry with it is the same as a deep sand bed for the most part.. they both work, its just a question of when/if they stop working and become a hazard rather than a help. Whether we can in the long term sustain enough life in them to keep them productive. If I were to go that route, I think I'd have to set up a schedule for changing out, just to keep my worry at bay.. not choosing that route means I don't have to concern myself with the 'what if'... which is strange given I just spent forever arguing for rock that comes with a million and a half what ifs. The deep sand bed is still something I'm considering in the fuge. Its a 20 long, so the long term cost/effectiveness would be somewhat limited by lack of space, which may be the middle ground.
To the MM, I've heard some good things and some bad. Its a weird discussion that one, in that folks seem to be extra passionate about it. My worry with it is the same as a deep sand bed for the most part.. they both work, its just a question of when/if they stop working and become a hazard rather than a help. Whether we can in the long term sustain enough life in them to keep them productive. If I were to go that route, I think I'd have to set up a schedule for changing out, just to keep my worry at bay.. not choosing that route means I don't have to concern myself with the 'what if'... which is strange given I just spent forever arguing for rock that comes with a million and a half what ifs. The deep sand bed is still something I'm considering in the fuge. Its a 20 long, so the long term cost/effectiveness would be somewhat limited by lack of space, which may be the middle ground.
Stacey,
well I wasn't going to go there..
so you are the person my professor in college told me about..
True story...
Student submitted a 10 paper with tons of research but only received a "C", when asked by the student why such a low grade, the professor replied, "to receive a B or higher you need your page needs to be at least 15 pages in length"
so the next paper that was submitted by the student was a 25 page paper that was directly from a newspaper article. the student received an "A".
the professor did not read any of the papers, he just looked at the length and gave a grade from there...so verbosity in this case a good thing even though the paper did not mean anything or at least germane to the project that the paper was based on.
and its professors like that that help to create all the software design engineers that seem to apply at my company.
the resume is like playing buzz word bingo, while the actual applicant is like playing with sand... feels like you might have something worthwhile in your hands, and then it all spills out your fingers. Sometimes I wonder how much nicer it might be to just build a three chambered sump with an over/under/over bubble trap, throw the cheato in the fuge in the middle with a bulb from home depot on a reverse cycle, and not spend more time thinking about it than actually doing it. It sounds like freedom. LOL
NC2WA
Well-known member
LOL LOL
I think this applies to all companies, even large enterprises.
myindoorocean
Well-known member
I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'd like to put in my 2 cents.
I agree with Carla, who I think said don't make drastic changes, just try to make small improvements. (I think she said that, anyway!) However.... it's hard to know exactly which small changes to make. So many choices!
I have a biopellet reactor and a skimmer similar to Carla's, and I don't usually use a filter sock, so I get quite a bit of detritus in the sump. I vacuum it about every third water change, I'm wondering if I should be doing it more often. I don't do it until there gets to be quite a bit in there.
I have baffles, and I can't get to the bottom of them to vacuum, so I have some that sits in there all the time. Is that bad?
While reading through this thread, I started thinking that maybe I should put some Chaeto in there and a light with the reverse schedule of my display tank. I have quite a large area in the sump to do that, that is pretty much empty right now. In addition, I could add a bunch of pods in the sump, which I would think would help with the detritus in there. I also feel that it may help with the hair algae problem I have in my display tank. I think it's slowly getting better, and my tank is only about 9 months old, so maybe I just need to wait that problem out but at the same time it would help in multiple ways.
Plus, my ph varies quite a bit, from 7.86 up to 8.36. I think constant light might help that to me more stable. Once again, I don't think this is a huge problem but at the same time, if I can make it better.
Just a couple of thoughts - more to come later!
I agree with Carla, who I think said don't make drastic changes, just try to make small improvements. (I think she said that, anyway!) However.... it's hard to know exactly which small changes to make. So many choices!
I have a biopellet reactor and a skimmer similar to Carla's, and I don't usually use a filter sock, so I get quite a bit of detritus in the sump. I vacuum it about every third water change, I'm wondering if I should be doing it more often. I don't do it until there gets to be quite a bit in there.
I have baffles, and I can't get to the bottom of them to vacuum, so I have some that sits in there all the time. Is that bad?
While reading through this thread, I started thinking that maybe I should put some Chaeto in there and a light with the reverse schedule of my display tank. I have quite a large area in the sump to do that, that is pretty much empty right now. In addition, I could add a bunch of pods in the sump, which I would think would help with the detritus in there. I also feel that it may help with the hair algae problem I have in my display tank. I think it's slowly getting better, and my tank is only about 9 months old, so maybe I just need to wait that problem out but at the same time it would help in multiple ways.
Plus, my ph varies quite a bit, from 7.86 up to 8.36. I think constant light might help that to me more stable. Once again, I don't think this is a huge problem but at the same time, if I can make it better.
Just a couple of thoughts - more to come later!
Chaeto, caulerpa, anything to help out compete the hair for nutrients.
I haven't vacuumed detritus out of my sump in 6 years now....................LOL. I have more aiptasia down there, they are filter feeders right...............
I honestly think that sometimes we tend to overthink stuff, I use the KISS, because that is all my poor little brain can handle.
I haven't vacuumed detritus out of my sump in 6 years now....................LOL. I have more aiptasia down there, they are filter feeders right..............
.I honestly think that sometimes we tend to overthink stuff, I use the KISS, because that is all my poor little brain can handle.
myindoorocean
Well-known member
What do you guys think about having chaeto/caulerpa and biopellets? I know some people say either/or.
Plus Carla, what kind of lights do you have in your fuge? Since mine would be in my stand and it gets kind of warm in there anyway, I'd like to use as cool of lights as possible.
Plus Carla, what kind of lights do you have in your fuge? Since mine would be in my stand and it gets kind of warm in there anyway, I'd like to use as cool of lights as possible.
I have both Matt, it hasn't seem to have affected my Caulerpa growth at all, I still haul about 4-5 lbs. out every 20 days.
I run 2- 3' VHO daylites over my fuge Matt, reverse lit.
I run 2- 3' VHO daylites over my fuge Matt, reverse lit.
myindoorocean
Well-known member
That's a lot of algae to pull out of there. Awesome!
Don't have room for that kind of light. I could go cheap with a fluorescent screw in, or get some kind of led. These look kind of cool, could put on the side of the sump.
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/catalog/product/view/id/3013/
Don't have room for that kind of light. I could go cheap with a fluorescent screw in, or get some kind of led. These look kind of cool, could put on the side of the sump.
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/catalog/product/view/id/3013/
Go to Home Depot and get a 6k screw in bulb. Why spend 100 bucks on that?
myindoorocean
Well-known member
Is that fluorescent? And a clamp light? And a timer?
That is what I am thinking, don't spend it until you know what is maybe going to work .
.
NC2WA
Well-known member
Yup..the only issue I have with the clamps, etc. is they tend to rust easily/quickly..otherwise a great investment.
myindoorocean
Well-known member
Still, so cheap just replace it every few months.
So, as I started all this, and have brought the live rock and fuge stuff into the discussion about baffles, I think I should use some of those 10,000 words I have to explain why I'm doing all this. But first, good news. The 20 long is plumbed and water testing as we speak. Its currently draining into the unbaffled sump, and the modified rocket engineer stand I built for it seems to be doing well. Its kind of in the middle of my living room for the test, so I can't get good pictures of it (really, its a small living room seemingly crammed full of fish tanks, which doesn't allow for getting angles that don't mostly show my coffee table or my couch.)
Also, bear with the mis spellings and randomness, but I'm watching the game at the same time. Also alot of this is back story that isn't really needed, but I think it will work best if I tell the 'story' of the tank since its likely to better convey an understanding of how I got here, and what I'm thinking.
While my 75 as it sits has only been setup for about two years, its a transfer from an older acrylic 75 long. I've given up on acrylic for the scratches, and that tank is actually still sitting at the side of my house if anyone needs it for a sump or fuge, they should give me a yell. The old 75 was set up for about 2 1/2 years and was set up with dry rock and dry sand. Its not a drilled tank and so it suffered from a HOB protein skimmer that I had to dial back a bit because it was sensitive to water level, and I didn't have an ATO so I had to be sure I wasn't going to just overflow the tank onto the floor. Adding an ATO was going to be really tough because I didn't have great openings to work with on the top, and I wasn't confident enough in evap rates to do a slow drip. It also suffered from some heat issues because the top closed it in a bit. Not enough to run a chiller, but enough to not be happy with some of the swings. The tank was a re-cyle and had its issues before I filled it, but add in sand and 'new tank' algae issues and it moved to pretty scratched up pretty quick. The scratches would hold the 'good' corraline algae as well as the bad, and it was always a challenge keeping the viewing panes clean. When things are hard, you do them less often. When you do them less often they become harder. When you finally get to cleaning the viewing panes that you've waited too long to clean, you add scratches. When you struggle to see into the tank, you miss things, when you miss things they are free to reproduce... fast forward a while and you have a tank that gets a bit overwhelming with the bad, and a bit underwhelming on the good. It wasn't the disaster that sounds like, it really wasn't. Fish and corals were healthy and growing, params stayed in line for the most part, and it wasn't covered in pests... but it wasn't heading in the right direction, and as view-ability decreased, so did enjoyment, which would then lend itself to poor maintenance. After some serious craigslist searching, I happened upon a drilled glass 75 for better than used pricing. I had to get a stand and sump and such, but other than a $20 20 gallon sump at the petco sale, I was able to reuse the equipment while I built up the proper stuff for the tank. So, the rock was scrubbed, a bit of the well rinsed sand was sprinkled on the bottom of the tank, and the corals were all dipped and moved, and the 'new' 75 was born. Over time I built up the equipment, including a proper skimmer and ATO, and lighting more appropriate to the tank size, and the tank has been growing an maturing since. It was a year before I really added anything new to the tank as I battled with getting params really under control. Not a couple weeks of good tests, but two of three months of good tests, along with things 'looking' the way they should in the tank. Things weren't unstable, but they were pretty variable, and I knew the best thing I could really do for it was patiently work the params and let the tank find itself. GFO, knocking back pests, and just generally allow it to find its groove.
You hear folks rushing through things and having high end SPS in their tank 6 months in. It does work for some, but for me, well, I just see it as the harder road. There is a balance a tank has to achieve before its ready for things whether you are ready for the earlier or not. I may have waited longer than most, but I feel like it is somewhat paying off now.
Fast forward a bit and the problems I'm trying to solve now are that for the most part I feel like nutrients in the tank are too low, or too high. I have tinkered with feedings and upping and lowering the GFO. It works to bring things down, and it works to bring things up, but for the last 8 or 10 months, what I'm finding is that there doesn't seem to be a 'sweet spot', at least as the tank currently sits. Right, wrong, or just plain stupid, what I've decided is that the problem really lies in using 'artificial' means to manage things. I have a few sponges in the tank (one nice blue one, the others just variants of pineapple sponges, and a few small yellows) and they tell me more than the tests, even though I still do keep up on my tests. When the sponges are growing I'm high on nutrients, when the sponges are shrinking I'm low.. when they are in stasis the tank is happy. I can guess pretty closely as to what my phos and trates are going to test at by watching the sponges. So, natural means of nutrient control in my 'theory' would solve the problem of the swings. With proper maintenance, macros will wax and wane with the nutrients in the tank without my help, and I think my help lately is doing less and less good.
In my opinion, this problem is more pronounced because I'm trying to really do a mixed reef. My SPS love one thing, my leathers another.. The thing is, nature has no problem with this. Nature provides just enough nutrients for everyone... and it appears to me that nature manages this by allowing a niche for things that will take up the excess when needed but survive through the droughts. That to me is where the fuge comes in. (took forever took get there.. sorry)
So, I started looking at ways to really incorporate a fuge into my system. Some do well with a small fuge in a sump, but with an unbaffaled 20 gallon tank and a skimmer with a footprint big enough to eat up about half of that, I don't really have the space to do much worth while. I have some cheato tumbling on a reverse cycle, but it doesn't really feel all that useful and it isn't really growing all that well... nutrients are low, and it doesn't have much space and was more an afterthought than it was a plan.
I don't have a lot of space for a large sump, it has to fit between the 75 and the 30 on one wall since the stand doesn't allow for it to be underneath. I have what basically is a 30x30 space. I'm a big believer in dillution being the best first answer to all issues, so I want to maximine volume in that footprint. With a cabinet, its likely the best I'm going to fit is 24x24 or so, which again doesn't leave a lot of room for a fuge once you shove a skimmer, return and likely reactors in sump since I'd be using the bulk of my space to fit the sump. So the fuge has to be external. Off to craigslist again. There are always people jumping out of the hobby, be it for loss of interest, lack of success (patience), or financial reasons, so I look used before I look new. I have about a 30x30 space, so best I'm going to do without a custom build is a 20 long. Would have loved to find just a little more room so I could have added a 40b to the search, but it just wasn't going to happen. Few weeks into watching I was about to give up and learn to drill when a 20 long rimless shows up with some equipment for next to nothing. Not sure the add was up for an hour before I had picked the tank up. So I'm hoping a 20 long, with slow flow, draining to the sump will work well for a fuge.
Started researching building my own sump since it wasn't likely I was going to find a used 50/60 cube, and I'm walking through SF&P in renton, and there lies a 24x24 bare acrylic sump/fuge. Luck has seemed to be on my side with this whole thing. There are no stands for 20 longs sitting on top 50/60 cubes though, so I did have to build that part. We're now four months into this adventure, and I just got to water testing it today beause there is work and holidays and some side consulting, and generally just life.
So, the whole story is that I'm just on a search for the most 'natural' means to manage things rather than having the tank rely so much on ME. Its not that I'm not willing to do the work, or figure it out, out.. its more that I think that the tank would do a much better job of it than I could.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel with this stuff, but I am out to try to examine the 'why' behind what works for people rather than just relying on it to work for me. Baffles are just one step in the process of examining all of this. (what a play by Rogers!) And I know there isn't a way to get it right or perfect, but I so want to understand why I'm doing things rather than just doing them.
I'm not sure this is helpful to the thread or not, or if it even matters that I typed it all out, but I've always found that when someone asks for help or explanations, its good to understand where there are or what they are trying to accomplish. So, there it is.
Oh, and, sorry for using up so much space on the page.. I'd understand perfectly if the majority of response to this it tl;dr
Also, bear with the mis spellings and randomness, but I'm watching the game at the same time. Also alot of this is back story that isn't really needed, but I think it will work best if I tell the 'story' of the tank since its likely to better convey an understanding of how I got here, and what I'm thinking.
While my 75 as it sits has only been setup for about two years, its a transfer from an older acrylic 75 long. I've given up on acrylic for the scratches, and that tank is actually still sitting at the side of my house if anyone needs it for a sump or fuge, they should give me a yell. The old 75 was set up for about 2 1/2 years and was set up with dry rock and dry sand. Its not a drilled tank and so it suffered from a HOB protein skimmer that I had to dial back a bit because it was sensitive to water level, and I didn't have an ATO so I had to be sure I wasn't going to just overflow the tank onto the floor. Adding an ATO was going to be really tough because I didn't have great openings to work with on the top, and I wasn't confident enough in evap rates to do a slow drip. It also suffered from some heat issues because the top closed it in a bit. Not enough to run a chiller, but enough to not be happy with some of the swings. The tank was a re-cyle and had its issues before I filled it, but add in sand and 'new tank' algae issues and it moved to pretty scratched up pretty quick. The scratches would hold the 'good' corraline algae as well as the bad, and it was always a challenge keeping the viewing panes clean. When things are hard, you do them less often. When you do them less often they become harder. When you finally get to cleaning the viewing panes that you've waited too long to clean, you add scratches. When you struggle to see into the tank, you miss things, when you miss things they are free to reproduce... fast forward a while and you have a tank that gets a bit overwhelming with the bad, and a bit underwhelming on the good. It wasn't the disaster that sounds like, it really wasn't. Fish and corals were healthy and growing, params stayed in line for the most part, and it wasn't covered in pests... but it wasn't heading in the right direction, and as view-ability decreased, so did enjoyment, which would then lend itself to poor maintenance. After some serious craigslist searching, I happened upon a drilled glass 75 for better than used pricing. I had to get a stand and sump and such, but other than a $20 20 gallon sump at the petco sale, I was able to reuse the equipment while I built up the proper stuff for the tank. So, the rock was scrubbed, a bit of the well rinsed sand was sprinkled on the bottom of the tank, and the corals were all dipped and moved, and the 'new' 75 was born. Over time I built up the equipment, including a proper skimmer and ATO, and lighting more appropriate to the tank size, and the tank has been growing an maturing since. It was a year before I really added anything new to the tank as I battled with getting params really under control. Not a couple weeks of good tests, but two of three months of good tests, along with things 'looking' the way they should in the tank. Things weren't unstable, but they were pretty variable, and I knew the best thing I could really do for it was patiently work the params and let the tank find itself. GFO, knocking back pests, and just generally allow it to find its groove.
You hear folks rushing through things and having high end SPS in their tank 6 months in. It does work for some, but for me, well, I just see it as the harder road. There is a balance a tank has to achieve before its ready for things whether you are ready for the earlier or not. I may have waited longer than most, but I feel like it is somewhat paying off now.
Fast forward a bit and the problems I'm trying to solve now are that for the most part I feel like nutrients in the tank are too low, or too high. I have tinkered with feedings and upping and lowering the GFO. It works to bring things down, and it works to bring things up, but for the last 8 or 10 months, what I'm finding is that there doesn't seem to be a 'sweet spot', at least as the tank currently sits. Right, wrong, or just plain stupid, what I've decided is that the problem really lies in using 'artificial' means to manage things. I have a few sponges in the tank (one nice blue one, the others just variants of pineapple sponges, and a few small yellows) and they tell me more than the tests, even though I still do keep up on my tests. When the sponges are growing I'm high on nutrients, when the sponges are shrinking I'm low.. when they are in stasis the tank is happy. I can guess pretty closely as to what my phos and trates are going to test at by watching the sponges. So, natural means of nutrient control in my 'theory' would solve the problem of the swings. With proper maintenance, macros will wax and wane with the nutrients in the tank without my help, and I think my help lately is doing less and less good.
In my opinion, this problem is more pronounced because I'm trying to really do a mixed reef. My SPS love one thing, my leathers another.. The thing is, nature has no problem with this. Nature provides just enough nutrients for everyone... and it appears to me that nature manages this by allowing a niche for things that will take up the excess when needed but survive through the droughts. That to me is where the fuge comes in. (took forever took get there.. sorry)
So, I started looking at ways to really incorporate a fuge into my system. Some do well with a small fuge in a sump, but with an unbaffaled 20 gallon tank and a skimmer with a footprint big enough to eat up about half of that, I don't really have the space to do much worth while. I have some cheato tumbling on a reverse cycle, but it doesn't really feel all that useful and it isn't really growing all that well... nutrients are low, and it doesn't have much space and was more an afterthought than it was a plan.
I don't have a lot of space for a large sump, it has to fit between the 75 and the 30 on one wall since the stand doesn't allow for it to be underneath. I have what basically is a 30x30 space. I'm a big believer in dillution being the best first answer to all issues, so I want to maximine volume in that footprint. With a cabinet, its likely the best I'm going to fit is 24x24 or so, which again doesn't leave a lot of room for a fuge once you shove a skimmer, return and likely reactors in sump since I'd be using the bulk of my space to fit the sump. So the fuge has to be external. Off to craigslist again. There are always people jumping out of the hobby, be it for loss of interest, lack of success (patience), or financial reasons, so I look used before I look new. I have about a 30x30 space, so best I'm going to do without a custom build is a 20 long. Would have loved to find just a little more room so I could have added a 40b to the search, but it just wasn't going to happen. Few weeks into watching I was about to give up and learn to drill when a 20 long rimless shows up with some equipment for next to nothing. Not sure the add was up for an hour before I had picked the tank up. So I'm hoping a 20 long, with slow flow, draining to the sump will work well for a fuge.
Started researching building my own sump since it wasn't likely I was going to find a used 50/60 cube, and I'm walking through SF&P in renton, and there lies a 24x24 bare acrylic sump/fuge. Luck has seemed to be on my side with this whole thing. There are no stands for 20 longs sitting on top 50/60 cubes though, so I did have to build that part. We're now four months into this adventure, and I just got to water testing it today beause there is work and holidays and some side consulting, and generally just life.
So, the whole story is that I'm just on a search for the most 'natural' means to manage things rather than having the tank rely so much on ME. Its not that I'm not willing to do the work, or figure it out, out.. its more that I think that the tank would do a much better job of it than I could.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel with this stuff, but I am out to try to examine the 'why' behind what works for people rather than just relying on it to work for me. Baffles are just one step in the process of examining all of this. (what a play by Rogers!) And I know there isn't a way to get it right or perfect, but I so want to understand why I'm doing things rather than just doing them.
I'm not sure this is helpful to the thread or not, or if it even matters that I typed it all out, but I've always found that when someone asks for help or explanations, its good to understand where there are or what they are trying to accomplish. So, there it is.
Oh, and, sorry for using up so much space on the page.. I'd understand perfectly if the majority of response to this it tl;dr
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