very frustrated with my new 2 true percs

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Sherry,

Some vitamins do have a positive impact on fish immune systems, but to be clear, you don't want to include garlic in that same thought. Garlic (extract, juice, or pieces) has never been shown to improve or positively impact the fish's immune system. You may find this an interesting read:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php


http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic31173-10-1.aspx

Wow - let's get the forum off with a bang [BigGrin] I do not mean to insult anyone's intellligence, but this forum is for all levels of the hobby - beginner to advanced. So my reply will be basic for some, but hopefully a refresher for all!

Too often than not, a fish, invert, live rock, etc is not quarantined properly and is added directly to the display tank - introducing all kinds of opportunistic pathogens.

Certain fish are definitely more susceptible to marine ich (crytocaryon irritans) such as the tangs and puffers [Angry]

A common thread you will hear, "my fish was doing fine for a couple of weeks & all of a sudden white spots appeared". The spots can often appear after there has been a change in the tank (a stressor) such as sudden water parameter changes (change in pH, alkalinity, ammonia, ORP, temperature), new tank mate added, mating/courting, aggressive substrate vacuuming or tank redecoration. Chronic stress (stress that goes on for a prolonged period of time - days - wweeks - months but doesn't acutely cause behavioral changes in the fish). Examples of this would be chronic suboptimal water quality (chronic low oxygen levels, ORP or pH), inappropriate or tainted/spoiled food, unwitnessed aggressive tendencies or inappropriate tank mates. These chronic conditions put strain on the fish's immune system where once it was able to fight off the pathogen/parasite, now becomes infected.

In order to understand the parasite, one must understand the life cycle of the parasite. When one sees the actual white spots, that is the adult often referred to as trophonts. These will mature and encapsulate themselves and fall off of the fish to the floor/substrate. The encapsulated cysts are now called tomonts. Tomonts will divide/multiply into small ciliated (hairlike) organisms. They are now called tomites. Tomites swarm the tank looking for new hosts (fish). This parasite bores into the mucosa of the skin, fins, and gills and then continues its life as a trophont.....and the circle of life continues. This process takes several days so often hobbyists will see spots "come and go". The ich is not gone but merely entering a new cycle and multiplying.

Symptoms besides the white spots include:

1. scratching and eradic/frantic swimming(fish trying to rid itself of the boring pest).

2. increased or heavy breathing, with the fish tending to stay at the water surace, close to water return pipes/powerheads or in airstone bubbles (parasite in gills affecting respirations).

3. increased mucous production (slime).

4. eye cloudiness (especially with puffers).

When left untreated, this parasite infestation can lead to other secondary opportunistic infections - bacterial infections like fin rot, red patches, ulcerations.

The display tank is infected with the parasite. If the fish has a strong immune system, the fish has a chance (I am not a betting person so don't ask me to place odds or chances) of overcoming the infestation. With that being said, the constant presence of the parasite and reinfection until (if ever) the fish develops an immunity/resistance can cause chronic stress and the fish can become victim to something else (bacterial, fungal or worm infestation.) Adding new fish at this point, even if they have now been properly quarantined , to this system is risky. They too will be exposed and they will surely become infested.

To rid the tank of the parasite:

I would recommend removing ALL of the fish and place in a separate bare bottom quarantine tank. By removing the fish, the parasite does not have a host to complete its life cycle. The tank will have to remain fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 4 weeks, I prefer 8 weeks. Another option would be to treat the main tank with copper. I do not recommend this especially if this is a reef, one with liverock or substrate. Copper will KILL inverts, corals and the micro fauna on the live rock. Substrate will leach/absorb the copper and the therapeutic treatment levels needed to cure/rid the parasite will not be achieved. There are many advertised/marketed "reef safe" ich cures - I don't recommend them. If you visist enough sites, talk to enough hobbyists, you will find those that highly recommend these products and then others that have had miserable or disastrous results....this is true about every aspect of life and science. I do not gamble when it comes to the life of an animal, fish or human.

What to do for the fish:

All the fish need to be treated in a separate quarantine/hospital tank.

*Hyposalinity (S.G. 1.009 - measured with a refractometer at least daily) for a minimum of 4 weeks. The parasite can not live in hyposalinity.

* The tank needs to be bare bottom (no substrate) with hiding spots for the fish. Hiding spots should be things that can be sterilized after each use - pvc pipe/couplings or those plastic caves/decorations used in freshwater tanks.

* There should be some source of biological filtration. I prefer air driven sponge filters that can be cycled or maintained in your display system's sump or a sponge or bioballs in a HOB (hang on the back filter). Both of these can be quickly removed from the display system and added to the QT.

* Additional aeration (air stone or power head pointed from the bottom of the tank to surface) will also be needed as these fish are stressed and this causes an increase demand for oxygen.

*Another option is to treat with copper in the quarantine/hospital tank. Copper has been proven as an affective treatment. Copper too is an irritant and fish breeders have found it to affect fertility. Copper kills inverts, algaes, corals. Some fish (scale-less fish, elasmobranchs) are very sensitive to copper and do not do well. If you use copper, in addition to the other water parameters, you must monitor the copper levels daily to prevent toxicity as well as subtherapeutic levels (low) as both extremes will affect the outcome/cure.

Whether you choose hyposalinity or copper treatment, you must monitor the water parameters in the tank at least daily as pH, ammonia and nitrite levels can change rapidly. This causes additional stress which can affect the success of cure. Frequent water changes and the addition of buffer to maintain pH are required.

Improving the fish's immune system will also help. You can do this by the addition of beta glucan, vitamins and garlic to the fish's diet daily while in treatment.

Watch closely for secondary infections as mentioned above. Antibiotics may need to be added. I would not recommend treating with antibiotics prophylactically or "just in case" as this can add stress or lead to a drug resistant pathogens.

Don't like these proven methods of cure- The only other option is to break down the tank & start over.

Wow - I now have writer's cramp and this is just the "reader's digest version"

Everyone still awake?

Best possible advice - Quarantine everything, you won't regret it!



Kelly
 
Closing down the night did 8 liter water change and the sg is down to 1.012
 
Sherry, Kelly is wrong. Have her PM me if she likes, but it is clear from the literature there is no proof that garlic improves or influences the fish immune system.
 
I never read anything about garlic improving the immune system of fish, the only time I suggest using it as an attractant to eating food but once they get to eating regularly I see no real reason to keep using it. I have noticed that it makes them smell or find the food rather easily & may be good for that purpose only but then once they eat regularly I see no benefit or continual usage. JMO from observation only!
 
Scooty,

The mis-information about garlic and the fish immune system comes from mis-interpreted results of some experimental work performed by the Italian, Colorni et al. Colorni found some data anomaly which couldn't be explained in his work injecting garlic juice into bacteria infected Sea Bass. A side statement was a guess -- that garlic may affect the fish immune system. This however, was not proven or carried further. From this single 'guess' people have mis-quoted the work to mean that garlic improves the fish immune system. A small but significant leap to an unsubstantiated/unproven statement.

To make matters worse, the control group Sea Bass which should not have been infected with the bacterial disease, was found to be diseased. So the control group was contaminated. The experiment was a marginal failure but as is the way of the scientific community, something had to be salvaged from the work to justify the research funds.

Even if Colorni's guess that garlic improves the fish immune system is correct, who in the hobby will be injecting their fish with garlic juice? There are absolutely no evidence that a fish swallowing garlic extract, juice or pieces has any impact, let alone improves the fish immune system. :(

Yet people keep repeating the mis-information.

The reference I gave to Steven Pro's article sums up some of the mis-information, but Steven didn't go as far as I go with calling the study a marginal failure. To date garlic has been shown only to agitate the fish, which may cause the fish to eat. It is a mixture of very weak, unstable antimicrobial agents also, according to studies. :)
 
Sherry, Kelly is wrong. Have her PM me if she likes, but it is clear from the literature there is no proof that garlic improves or influences the fish immune system.

Lee, I am not an expert, nor do I profess to be. I have chosen to look to Kelly for guidance in matters concerning fish diseases and wellness based on my personal experiences. I find her approach to things to be practical and reasonable. Having been in the medical field for over 20 years, there are plenty of instances where a treatment may be "outside the box" or purely anecdotal, until which time a drug company spends a billion dollars in research to document its effectiveness in applications other than its initial intent.

Just as gargling with warm saltwater (not from your tank) will help with a sore throat and an abscessed tooth - it doesn't replace an antibiotic when there is an infection, but it certainly speeds the process.

I am a definite proponent of living better through chemistry - but that doesn't discount the fact that many holistic remedies are effective in giving the body a boost in whatever area may be ailing. Garlic has been used for centuries for more than just cooking! :D
 
I think I found a good fish for my tank lol...Mandarin Goby! it cant get ick lol
 
Really? Why not? I have plenty of copepods and live rock ...i'm not saying right now i'm saying for the future
 
Too little live rock, too small a tank, too difficult a specie to keep alive. ADVANCED AQUARIST SPECIE.

You first need to learn, to read and study up on the hobby, to be patient. Keep easy to feed, fast to propagate, TOUGH fish. Get you tank a year or more older and stable.

Regards,
 
Yeah it says a stable tank of atleast 6 months on this stuff I read...I was just making a joke...ya know ick tank ick free fish :lol:
 
My fish in the QT are looking great and very active today...had a nice big flake breakfast
 
My fish in the QT are looking great and very active today...had a nice big flake breakfast

That is good news! In a day or so, remove the rest of the gravel and add as many hiding places as possible. Make sure the water has been buffered enough to keep the PH in a decent range. Buffer VERY slowly as in tiny amounts over days. Keep the filter clean of detritus and uneaten flakes but don't over clean and remove all the bacteria. The 6-8 weeks will be over before you know it.:)
 
It's already been about 1 i think lol...i'm using seachem marine buffer, its good stuff cause you can overdose and it wont do any harm (not that i try to overdose). I have a long tube for them to hide in but they seem to enjoy swimming around...my damsel and clown seem to like each other :razz: . Tonight i'll bring the SG down to 1.008 cause its at 1.012 right now and then the real waiting begins! but yeah right now the color on the damsel is back to normal and they are both looking real great
 
Actually, joker577, Mandarins can contract and carry Marine Ich. :cry:
 
:evil:
Lee, I am not an expert, nor do I profess to be. I have chosen to look to Kelly for guidance in matters concerning fish diseases and wellness based on my personal experiences. I find her approach to things to be practical and reasonable. Having been in the medical field for over 20 years, there are plenty of instances where a treatment may be "outside the box" or purely anecdotal, until which time a drug company spends a billion dollars in research to document its effectiveness in applications other than its initial intent.

Just as gargling with warm saltwater (not from your tank) will help with a sore throat and an abscessed tooth - it doesn't replace an antibiotic when there is an infection, but it certainly speeds the process.
Then, you add ginger to your tanks, too? :evil: The use of garlic and ginger for immunity is myth, not anecdotal Sherry.

There is much anecdotal information out there, but the fact is that there is no anecdotal information to suggest that adding garlic to marine fish food improves their immune system. Such a thing is not visible and is not confirmable through observation. It takes chemical analytical measurements of antibody titre.

The gargling example has shown to reduce bacteria, thus inflammation, thus poisons that are an observable feature. Rightly, it's in an anecdotal category.

I and Kelly have taken an extended college course together on ornamental fish diseases. I respect Kelly and we have counseled on a few matters regarding Marine Ich, but she is passing along (probably by accident and/or unintentionally) mis-information for which there isn't even any anecdotal evidence. That's the difference between observation (anecdotal conclusions) and myth. Believe who you will, Sherry, but I have an obligation to make sure the readers here understand myth, anecdotal, and facts.
 
So far it's day 11 and the fish are doing fine...the SG keeps constant around 1.008-1.010 as long as i keep topping it off..eating alot swimming around alot everything's good :razz: In my main tank I've been doing alot of adding....well not too much. I picked up a xenia stalk and he's now attached himself to the rock and is now pulsing it's little stalks away. I got a bunch of zoas for only 15$ and there's about 30-40 polyps...and I also got 5 bullseye mushrooms attached to a piece of liverock for 30$ and it's looking very nice now. I'll update with pics if u guys want.
 
joker577 - were these new additions to your fallow display? You will have to start your fishless time period over with these new additions. There could be theronts (Lee correct me if I'm using the wrong part of the life cycle) present on anything you just put into the tank.
 
I freshwater dipped them and shook them...they were also in tanks that had no fish whatsoever
 

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