My New Metal Halides

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I am sure you are very frustrated, but we can figure this out. I looked back at all your pics to see the diff fan placement. I too am not wanting to drill holes in the side of my canopy, and I dont think I will have too, and neither will you. You keep your hose at 72 degress there is no reason why ur tank cant get down to 82ish w/o a chiller.


Some things that are going through my head:

1. How much air do your fans move? The 2 fans I just got move 78 CFM a piece, thats quite a bit of air. Maybe your fans arent moving enough air to help with the temp.

2. The places you have had your fans I dont think are going to do much good. Try having both fans blowing into the canopy and try both fans pulling air out of the canopy.

3. Lastly if you had your canopy off all day and the temp didnt go below 84.5 degrees you have a pump or something heating up your water NOT the lights.


Just some thoughts HTH
 
krish are you using a fan on your sump too? Just a thought with your canopy, can you move the fans to the back and have one pushing air in and one pulling it out?

Yeah, I have a fan in my stand blowing in there over the sump, but not directly in it. I may have to move that to make it more effective. Martin recommended a bigger fan to blow on the sump water which I may try...:)

I am sure you are very frustrated, but we can figure this out. I looked back at all your pics to see the diff fan placement. I too am not wanting to drill holes in the side of my canopy, and I dont think I will have too, and neither will you. You keep your hose at 72 degress there is no reason why ur tank cant get down to 82ish w/o a chiller.


Some things that are going through my head:

1. How much air do your fans move? The 2 fans I just got move 78 CFM a piece, thats quite a bit of air. Maybe your fans arent moving enough air to help with the temp.

2. The places you have had your fans I dont think are going to do much good. Try having both fans blowing into the canopy and try both fans pulling air out of the canopy.

3. Lastly if you had your canopy off all day and the temp didnt go below 84.5 degrees you have a pump or something heating up your water NOT the lights.


Just some thoughts HTH

I just checked the temperature and it is at 83 now so it dropped a full degree. I felt all the pumps that were under water and all felt cool. The only ones I haven't checked yet is my Tunzes. I'll check them tomorrow. I think I am going to give up the "neat look" and remove the whole back off of my stand and leave it open. I had it like that before (without a back), but wanted it to look neat under my stand so I put one on, but I think I'll have to remove it to get the heat out. I'll just let it be for now till tomorrow to see what the temp goes to when I wake up in the morning, then I'll check it after I get home from work when the MH's would have been on for a few hours. If the tank dropped 1 degree after an hour, then I may get lucky and have it drop off another degree or 2 over night. We'll see...
 
DON'T GIVE UP DOOD !!! and don't be mad or stressed (hey at least you didn't have to deal with Flatworms for a year ;) :D )

Hmm i think you got a fan on your sump but i dodn't remember that good.
If you dont' i think it'd be a good idea to get a semi big one ... that's what i used to have before.
I don't think your lights are the problem.
I think it's something else, but just don't know what, i would even think about your home if it gets too hot in there ... when it gets hot in here, the tank gets to 82 .
I don't know what to tell you dood :( .... i wish i could tell you... just do this and you'll be set.

i send you a stinky armpit :lol: ... no just kidding... a little hug.
 
Yeah, I have a fan in my stand blowing in there over the sump, but not directly in it. I may have to move that to make it more effective. Martin recommended a bigger fan to blow on the sump water which I may try...

aahhh ha... just put it blowing directly dood and the bigger the better :D .
 
DON'T GIVE UP DOOD !!! and don't be mad or stressed (hey at least you didn't have to deal with Flatworms for a year )

Hmm i think you got a fan on your sump but i dodn't remember that good.
If you dont' i think it'd be a good idea to get a semi big one ... that's what i used to have before.
I don't think your lights are the problem.
I think it's something else, but just don't know what, i would even think about your home if it gets too hot in there ... when it gets hot in here, the tank gets to 82 .
I don't know what to tell you dood .... i wish i could tell you... just do this and you'll be set.

i send you a stinky armpit ... no just kidding... a little hug.

LOL! No armpits this way please:p I'm not going to give up. I'll just keep cactus or something from the desert in there(LOL) Naw...I'll get it worked out. I'm just feeling down that's all. I think I know what part of the problem is...I live in the Bahamas and it is already getting very hot here. The thermostat is set to 75 in the day and the room feels cool, but still. In any event, by the end of the weekend I'll have that tank stable at 79-80F. I just got tons to do at work, tons on my mind and then a hot tank! I'll get it:)
 
Hang in there Krish!!! Just hang in there,


Thanks Charlie...On a positive note the tank so far has gone from 86 to 83 so I'm heading in the right direction. Time for bed now, so I'll check you guys tomorrow before I overheat my brain next:p
 
Dude, be positive. You know the story. A kid comes home from school, says Dad I think I failed my history test.
Dad says Son be positive.
Son says Ok Dad, I'm positive I failed my history test. LOL
Krish, How much light and heat is coming in that window during the day?
 
I just got tons to do at work, tons on my mind and then a hot tank! I'll get it

dood the baby is not even out yet and you're all over stressed and what not :D ....well it's getting there dood.
 
Dude, be positive. You know the story. A kid comes home from school, says Dad I think I failed my history test.
Dad says Son be positive.
Son says Ok Dad, I'm positive I failed my history test. LOL

LMBO!!! :lol: that's a good one
 
Krish, looks like you've got some thermodynamic blues. Let me help you understand how a fan cools the water. I'm gona try to do this in standard units because it seems much of us use them, and it will make it about 10 times harder for me, and I enjoy that.

Ok, multiply the volume of your tank and sump in gallons by 9 ((4.18kJ/kg)/((2.2lbs/kg)(8lbs/gal)5/9F/C + compensation for rock)an approximation trying to compensate for the differnent specific heat value of the rock mass in your tank) This will give you the amount of kJ needed to change the temp of your system by 1degF, assumeing your house is roughly the same temp as the tank.


So, how do fans remove energy? (kJ?) By evaporation requireing energy to happen, and the place it gets this energy is from the heat of the water. The air directly over the surface of the water is always saturated with 100% humidity, but its rapidly defuseing into air layers above it. The purpose of the fans is to provide a steady stream of new air which isnt saturated at 100% humitidy to the boundry layer on the surface of the water. So, when you are considering fan placement, keep in mind all the circulation in the world of air saturated at 100% humidity doesnt really do any good, so place fans accordingly.

Evergy ml of water evaporated pulls out about 540kJ/g (some of you may wonder why I say 'about', but after some thermodynamics you will understand a PdV work required to expand the water into its gaseous form changes things slightly, so its actually just 'about 540kJ/g). So, to change this into terms easy to relate to aquariums, everytime your fans evaporate 1 gal of water, they are 1188kJ of energy removed from the water.

Now, there are some other huge factors like ambient temp around the tank, along with the rate of airflow in the room, combined with thickness of the acrilic and flow patterns in the tank etc etc. But that stuff its really challenging to calculate, and if ambient temp is below the temp you wish to acheive, its not going to be the cause of the problem.

So, if you ballence the large amount of heat the tank is getting with an evaporation rate that I showed how to calculate above, then you can find a thermal equlibrium point that meets your needs.

A few things I noticed above, first I want to say that when you feel a submerged or partially submerged, and it feels cool to the touch, guess where the heat went? Into the water, all those pumps are effectively water cooled, and that means all the extra energy goes into heating the water. I dont know what pumps you are running, but it could easily be like haveing a 50watt+ heater running continously in your tank.

Now, the halides, WOW, halides are just like above tank mounted heaters. You may find the most cost effective and energy efficient solution is to swap the halide setup out for some T5s. I know when I had my halides, temp was always something i had to worry about, after swapping to T5s, that whole issue just dissapeared, and I was able to stop dicking with fans and things. The combo effect of buying a chiller$$, which is a large power drain, and dumping tons of wasted energy in heat into the tank with the halides would be getting a little silly (IMO at least).


Best of luck to you my friend, and if you have any questions I can help you with, its never a burden.
 
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liveforphysics said:
Now, the halides, WOW, halides are just like above tank mounted heaters. You may find the most cost effective and energy efficient solution is to swap the halide setup out for some T5s. I know when I had my halides, temp was always something i had to worry about, after swapping to T5s, that whole issue just dissapeared, and I was able to stop dicking with fans and things. The combo effect of buying a chiller$$, which is a large power drain, and dumping tons of wasted energy in heat into the tank with the halides would be getting a little silly (IMO at least).

Let's work with what Krish has.

Krish - in my experience, larger fans postitioned in the sump, blowing directly on the water is a huge help. I'm in a waiting pattern right now for a larger chiller for my system, and I currently don't have my small chiller on (getting ready to sell it). I am able to keep my water temp below 81F. Once we hit the 90s this summer though (with even higher heat index :eek: ), and the central air is cranked on (we set it to about 74-76F), my tank goes a little above 82F (I like to keep my tank no higher than 80.5 F). I currently have 3 6" fans blowing on the water of the sump. I do not have a back on the stand, so they are drawing air from the outside of the stand. I think you will see a difference, if you get some larger fans in the stand, blowing on the water. I can't remember....do you have any kind of "top" or lid on part of your sump? What time of day do you have your halides come on? The other thing I have in my canopy is 4 4" fans, all blowing out. When I open my canopy, I don't feel any trapped heat. I know you don't want to chop up your new canopy, but something to consider is a combination of air flow cooling techniques that may help out. In the room the tank is located, is there a ceiling fan to help move heat away from the tank by circulating the air?

Hang in there!
 
Thanks for the info Luke and the encouragement everyone to keep at it...
I said last night in my last post that I'd have it sorted out by the end of the weekend and welll:D

MY PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED!!

I just have to see what the temperature looks like when I get home after the halides had been on for a few hours, but by just leaving those fans on last night in the position I showed in the last pictures my temperature dropped to 80.7 degrees:D I didn't mess with the air condition temperature by dropping it any, I didn't leave the canopy open or my stand doors open. I just ran the fans and that's it. So, I figured once I pop a bigger fan under my stand to blow on my sump and flip the one I have in there now to push out the hot air, hopefully that will be all I need. I guess the MH's will determine what will have to be done. I will still put that 3rd fan in the canopy to blow the hot air out, but I'll just leave that one to come on with the lights. So far it's looking like I don't need to remove the back on my stand:)

Anyways, thank you everyone for the feedback, suggestions, encouragement, pm's etc. I'm glad I'm on the right track now, so it should be really easy to fine tune things from here. Thanks again everyone and I'll let you guys know later what happens when I get home. In any event, when I ran the fans last night with the halides on, the surfce of the water still felt pretty cool, so hopefully those 20K's won't heat up anything much. I'll keep you'll posted and thanks again:)
 
Let's work with what Krish has.

Krish - in my experience, larger fans postitioned in the sump, blowing directly on the water is a huge help. I'm in a waiting pattern right now for a larger chiller for my system, and I currently don't have my small chiller on (getting ready to sell it). I am able to keep my water temp below 81F. Once we hit the 90s this summer though (with even higher heat index ), and the central air is cranked on (we set it to about 74-76F), my tank goes a little above 82F (I like to keep my tank no higher than 80.5 F). I currently have 3 6" fans blowing on the water of the sump. I do not have a back on the stand, so they are drawing air from the outside of the stand. I think you will see a difference, if you get some larger fans in the stand, blowing on the water. I can't remember....do you have any kind of "top" or lid on part of your sump? What time of day do you have your halides come on? The other thing I have in my canopy is 4 4" fans, all blowing out. When I open my canopy, I don't feel any trapped heat. I know you don't want to chop up your new canopy, but something to consider is a combination of air flow cooling techniques that may help out. In the room the tank is located, is there a ceiling fan to help move heat away from the tank by circulating the air?

Hang in there!


Thanks Nikki:) No my sump doesn't have a lid on it. And about the room, I don't have a ceiling fan near the tank, but I do have an aircondition vent about 5ft away, which I just noticed is pointed away from the tank since the guys changed the vents this week. May be part of the problem, but I didn't re-adjust it yet because I wanted to see what will happen today without it pointed that way. I will work on the sump fans etc when I get home after I seewhat needs to be done. I will just watch it today to see what has to be done to keep things pretty consistant.
 
dood i go to bed and wake up to a huge page to read.... DON'T YOU PEOPLE SLEEP !! :p .... just joking.
I guess time for me to read again.... sheesh this month in deed has been the month of lighting.
 
It Gets Better:D :D :D

I went home to make sure I had the ballast on and realized I was only running 1 fan the whole night!:eek: I had another dud!!! I have to call our people today and tell them about it, so anyways, I found a replacememnt somewhere else and went back home and swapped out the bad one so I have 2 fans on now. I'm afraid I will drop below 78!(LOL)

About cooling the bulbs, well I've seen it with my own eyes what happens. I started up the lights to make sure everything was set and the bulb on the side of the tank that the fan was working on was tons bluer than the one that didn't have the fan on it. Well, the fan doesn't blow on the bulb, but it cools that side of the canopy. Anyways, I had pm'd Mike to ask him what would happen with the spectrum, but I found out on my own.

Keep your fingers crossed everyone that the other fan doesn't freak on me and the temp stays cool with the halides on:)
 
ok after the reading, i'm glad your temperature dropped :) .
About the lights, i'm sure they will warm up the tank a little, but i don't think it'll be that much.
When my lights are off my tank goes to 75 and when the lights are on it goes to 78 so for sure it get warm a little and i dont' even have a heater on :p .
 

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