Phosphate Remover Article

[Scooterman]

Thanks DonW

 

[DonW]

DonW less is better with ROWA if you have a 180 gal tank than used the amount for a 100 gal tank would be better.

No. You should get up to the full amount slowly so as not to shock your system. The question would then be how slowly? With my slightly skewed, non scientific test you should be able to use orp as a sort of guide. (in theory).

I am going start the addition of rowa this week end in this same tanke 1/6 at a time and will post the results.

Don

 

[Hooked]

That is interesting Don. I had also read several of those threads on RC. One of the things I noted was that in some cases, these people were using ridiculous amounts of the stuff!! Your test results would indicate that might cause a problem

I've been using 250 ml in a 90 gal with no adverse affects. In fact, I cleaned my skimmer, replaced the RP and replaced my carbon, and all the bryopsis I'd been fighting for months disappeared in less than three days.

 

[Dr B]

It is hard to understand what is going on here with RP. I have read all the negative threads about it. I think there are more people running it fine, than there are with problems.

Now I sort of understand why RP needs to be acclimated for certain reasons. Some people say it brings the PO4 down way to fast, and that the acros cant handle it. Well if that was the case, these people sucessfully running RP with low levels of PO4 would never be able to introduce acros to the system that came from tanks with elevated PO4 levels, because they would need to acclimate them to the new water quality for a very long time. More so than a hour, because I am sure RP wont drop my phosphates down too much in a hour either. So the acclimation to PO4 seems to be flawed here does it not?

Now it has been said that PO4 affects ALK/PH right? Well that I can see wouldnt be good, and why you need acclimation, as to not drop it too quickly. But just how quickly is the ALK and PH dropping, because the ALK and PH in shipping water is going to be different here too. So does the alk and ph drop that much in lets say a hour?

Also on affecting ORP. Is it truly affecting ORP in a sense to be harmful, or is it a false reading? I pretty much consider my orp prob on my aquacontroller to be useless. I dont know that ORP is going to be that great of a judge in this case.

So I mean really what here are the problems? The whole acclimation bit doesnt seem to be the complete answer. It is as if there is something else going on here.
I agree that good things come slow in tanks, so by introducing RP and lowering your levels as slow as possible wont do anything but help. But the question is, will it really help that much? Are people really suprassing that level that they are stripping out too much PO4 to be healthy, because they started with a low ammount to begin with?
I really feel that before I try such a thing I need to get one of those $150 dollar accurate test kits. Not everyone is doing this, did they even check what their starting/ending lvls of PO4 are? Most arent....

 

[DonW]

Also on affecting ORP. Is it truly affecting ORP in a sense to be harmful, or is it a false reading? I pretty much consider my orp prob on my aquacontroller to be useless. I dont know that ORP is going to be that great of a judge in this case.

Why would you consider your orp probe useless? Since I'm one of the odd balls that still uses ozone, I have ORP controller and just a meter. Both are calibrated every other week (opposite each other). Both read almost exactly the same. The whole acclimation thing does make perfect sense, if you were to consider ORP. A extreme climb in ORP would be like running ozone to long. Acclimating allows build up of other solids to make up the difference in the loss of po4 and silicates.
Heck makes sence to my small brain.

Don

 

[Dr B]

I dont run ozone so my Orp is what my Orp is.
How do you calibrate your orp too every week? Do you use a precise calibration or one of those crappy ones that gives you like 100+/- error? So since I dont care to mess around with it, I consider my ORP probe useless... and most other people dont mess with it, hence why I disregarded it.

Now is that ORP going to drop down if you leave the RP in there? Lets say you are adding RP slowly... you add some and you go from 400 orp to 450 orp. Will it drop back down to 450 or is it going to stay there. In otherwords is this ORP change a short term, or long term effect?

Acclimating allows build up of other solids to make up the difference in the loss of po4 and silicates.

I dont understand this part of the quote. And I am not trying to be argumentative here, so dont get defensive. We are all working towards a common goal.

 

[DonW]

That is interesting Don. I had also read several of those threads on RC. One of the things I noted was that in some cases, these people were using ridiculous amounts of the stuff!! Your test results would indicate that might cause a problem

I've been using 250 ml in a 90 gal with no adverse affects. In fact, I cleaned my skimmer, replaced the RP and replaced my carbon, and all the bryopsis I'd been fighting for months disappeared in less than three days.

Dont get me wrong I love the stuff and will continue to use it. I have this policy not to put anything in my tank that I cannot measure. I purchased the merc kit and used it up. It really just tells you when you get down to that almost 0 mark. But I think without knowing when youve made it, is where people are getting into trouble. In fact according to rowa instructions you are using to much. But if your putting it in a bag your not getting full use so probably no big deal. If it works keep doing it.

Don

 

[DonW]

I dont run ozone so my Orp is what my Orp is.
How do you calibrate your orp too every week? Do you use a precise calibration or one of those crappy ones that gives you like 100+/- error? So since I dont care to mess around with it, I consider my ORP probe useless... and most other people dont mess with it, hence why I disregarded it.

Now is that ORP going to drop down if you leave the RP in there? Lets say you are adding RP slowly... you add some and you go from 400 orp to 450 orp. Will it drop back down to 450 or is it going to stay there. In otherwords is this ORP change a short term, or long term effect?



I dont understand this part of the quote. And I am not trying to be argumentative here, so dont get defensive. We are all working towards a common goal.

No offense taken, just not well spoken. I use pinpoint orp calibration fluid. You have to take the actual orp with a grain of salt if you dont calibrate your probes weekly and have a comparison probe. Lets say you havent calibrated your probe and it read 400 and you jump up to 600, 200 off your base line is a problem. My opinion is the orp change is short term and will drop its the spikes that cause damage, just like running excess ozone.
Being the non scientific guy that I am, water can only hold so much crap. If we take out some of the "crap" we see a increase in orp. If we take out po4 we make room for other stuff thus decreasing orp back to the baseline.


Hope I'm making some sort of sense.
Don

 

[mojoreef]

Interesting points of view here for sure. Slow acclimation I also believe to be the perfered method. Remember the stuff is Iron, so in effect you are dosing it.

Some people say it brings the PO4 down way to fast, and that the acros cant handle it.

I dont buy this one. PO4 is unused P. So if its unused you are not taking it away. Corals have far more superior methods of aquiring P. specially acro's.

Now it has been said that PO4 affects ALK/PH right?

Yep it does and if for no other reason this would be good enough to slowly acclimate.

The ORP readings does make a bit of sence. Adding iron to your tank is going to suppy a huge food source for oxidisers. More oxidation higher orp reading. Also with it binding up PO4 its going to take away food for the reducers, thus lowering the orp.

As per the RC folks I believe that it was also discovered that some of them had just used heart worm meds and one had also used flatworm exit. So who realy knows.

Donw I also used ozone, from time to time and dont see a problem with its use as long as it is controlled and measured as you do. Do you have it set for PH compensation????

Mike

 

[DonW]

Mike,
No I dont have it set up to help with ph. I only have one ph controller and its in the ca reactor. I dont think I'll leave it there much longer. I finally got my reactor running extremely consistant so no need for a controller.
Are you plugging your orp controller into a ph controller? I was wondering if using a all in one controller might be easier?


Thanks
Don

 

[mojoreef]

DOn I use an aquacontroller so its an all in one unit. When adding ph conpensation to the orp system thier is close to a 100 point difference in the readings. As in when ph is conpensated for the orp was almost a 100 points lower.


Mike

 

[bobgoode]

Good thread. Two Acropora brown-outs & two other Acropora RTN later, I stopped RP 2mos. ago. The RTN's were 8mos. & 1 1/2 yrs in my system & appeared healthy before RP. There were no light, current or water chemistry changes. What happened? The theories are many, some already mentioned. One that has not, evolves around iron leaching into the water. BTW, RP is treated with an alkaline solution making it "wet" but can not recall the German reference.[OK, Nikki, you can come out of hibernation now ] Over on the other forum, most of the RTN's were with use of RP. Is it possible that RP is too effective in reducing P04's in comparison to PB? A P04 starved zooxanthellae is a unhealthy zooxanthellae. My personal opinion here is that unbalanced reduction of P04's to N03's occurs too quickly for the SPS to adapt. Bob

 

[NaH2O]

Hmm...interesting thought on iron. I haven't heard back on why the "wetness" of RP makes it better than the dry. Perhaps RP is too effective on systems that don't need it (i.e. their PO4 input isn't very high).

Bob, do you feel that SPS should be acclimated to RP usage, or it would be better if only run once in a while?

 

[NaH2O]

On the iron thought.....if iron was in issue, wouldn't Miracle Mud or KM Iron supp. users see a lot of RTNing?

Iron in a Reef Tank

Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgaes

 

[bobgoode]

Nikki, I really wish I knew the answer. I know this: I used RP/recommended dose to loflow fluidized canister for several months during which the P04's were undetectable/Salifert's. My two brwn's ocurred within the 1st wk. of use. The RTN's 3mos. later. Another reefer has tried 1/2the dose run on/off 12hr. intervals with two RTN's 3days later. He had already used RP/recommended dose, etc. & lost several to RTN. I believe his interval between uses was 3wks. Another very successful SPS keeper added RP to see if he could "improve" his reef even further. You know what happened next--lost his 3y/o Acropora He'll never use it again. At the same time there are SPS reefers who have had no problems I won't be using it again & I have the lg. bucket of this stuff :exclaim: I believe there is too much of a variable in reducing P04's without a corresponding reduction in N03's. Nikki, your point about using RP in already low nutrient systems is right on the money. BTW, possibly the alkalinity treatment increases it's absorption affinity for phosphate. Bob

 

[bobgoode]

Good question. I really have no idea if & how much Fe makes it way back into the water. Maybe others could help out here. BTW, Mike, I'm bunkerless now just case you want to fire away Bob

 

[danieljames]

I've been doing alot of reading on other sites lately about rowaphos negatively affecting sps. Causing them to lose color the biggest problem. When these people quit the rowaphos..thier sps colored back up. Some polyp extension issues as well. No actual testing done.....just by observation. Anyone else experienced this/read about it?

 

[NaH2O]

Danieljames - Welcome to Reef Frontiers!!! Good to see you join us! I wonder about the polyp extension - we have determined that polyps don't always have to be extended to mean the coral is healthy (see thread - Polyp Extension = Happy Corals?)...not saying the lack of extension wasn't a direct result...just posing an alternative.

Bob - I did neglect to touch on the nitrates. Maybe the correlation between PO4 and NO3 is something to consider - reduce one and you need to reduce the other? I haven't thought about the chemistry deep enough to figure out if it would matter. The only thing I can gather is (adding to the coral adaptation/evolving thread) the inhabitants get accustomed to the nutrients and when one is stripped out, the corals go into a shock state.

 

[bobgoode]

Daniel, the two Acroporas that I lost did retract their polyps for a few wks before R/STN occured. Funny, the color did seem to "matt" now that I recall the incidents. Bob

 

[mojoreef]

Its a strange one for sure Bob. I know a few of the folks on RC had just finished other big treatments with other products. But you case is baffling, specially in regards to no chemical changes. I use it and have had no problems so far, but I did do a big rince of the material prior to use, and to be honest I was surprised at the ammount of particulate dust. If that dust was subjected to a reef tank it would be hard to believe it would have no effect either short or long term.
In regards to P starvation, I dont know that one seems to be a long shot, with acros the vast majority of thier P budget is internal. Here is another shot, brown outs of corals are usually due to a big population increase in the corals zoox. Now iron is a nutrient and could fuel algae growth. So what if the particles were captured by mucus netting, brought into the coral, the nutrient causes an immediate zoox bloom, leading to a brown out. Some corals can handle the zoox population increase, and just brown up, while others begin to go into emergency mood and expell their zoox, meltdown then rtn.
Rowa has been used for along time in europe with none of these problems really, the chemical changes were noticed. Some how it just leads me to an internal problem with Iron dust, this is what nailed Florida to a point to.

anyway just throwing something out.



Mike